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RE: Air Transport Operational Losses
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 5:29 pm
by Yaab
BBFanboy, sorry, I cannot isolate the supply coming from the other cities.
It begs for a sandbox test in the editor with two isolated
islands - A with 100% damaged airfield and B with aircraft and supply. Maybe someone can help?
Any unit can repair runways (but engineers are best of course), but the Airfield Service component needs engineers.
Did you observe any increase to delivered supply from the aircraft? (don't know how it can be separated from normal supply unless the AF usually gets supply once or twice a week and you did the test in between deliveries.)
RE: Air Transport Operational Losses
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:30 am
by Barb
I think if the "destination" airfield is too damaged to receive landing planes, they would simply perform an air drop - and its effectiveness should be some function of TRAN skill.
RE: Air Transport Operational Losses
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:50 am
by Yaab
There was no message during the AIR TRANSPORT PHASE about the supplies having been dropped. Nothing.
RE: Air Transport Operational Losses
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:46 am
by LoBaron
1) Aviation support at destination base has no impact on TR ops. Think about it: How could it - except with massive abstraction? The repair phase is only after the mission is complete. Why should A/S at a base affect planes on a different base?
2) Runway damage on destination base will affect TR op losses (and as a result #of supplies/devices delivered).
3) TR planes flying to bases sufficiently damaged to close the runway should drop their supplies instead of 'landing' (Michael fixed a bug where TR planes landing on such bases resulted in massive op losses, I am not sure if they are actually dropping instead - never tested this).
In general I am pretty sure there is some small line of code increasing chances of op losses based on destination base rwy damage. Note that the transport missions are similar point2point calculations as bombing missions or paradrops. The TR do not actually land at the destination base, it is just an abstraction by the code.
RE: Air Transport Operational Losses
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:57 pm
by BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: LoBaron
1) Aviation support at destination base has no impact on TR ops. Think about it: How could it - except with massive abstraction? The repair phase is only after the mission is complete. Why should A/S at a base affect planes on a different base?
2) Runway damage on destination base will affect TR op losses (and as a result #of supplies/devices delivered).
3) TR planes flying to bases sufficiently damaged to close the runway should drop their supplies instead of 'landing' (Michael fixed a bug where TR planes landing on such bases resulted in massive op losses, I am not sure if they are actually dropping instead - never tested this).
In general I am pretty sure there is some small line of code increasing chances of op losses based on destination base rwy damage. Note that the transport missions are similar point2point calculations as bombing missions or paradrops. The TR do not actually land at the destination base, it is just an abstraction by the code.
I cannot be sure, but I suspect that flying to another base that has an airfield makes the AI decide it is NOT a paradrop mission up front and then when the aircraft fly with normal load and find the airfield too damaged to land, they turn around and go back without delivering anything.
Delivering where no airfield exists sets up the paradrop mission which might reduce the supply carried because of the parachute equipment, but at least something gets delivered.
BTW, I drop parachute loads at 1000' to increase accuracy. Haven't seen anything that says it increases chances of being shot down.
RE: Air Transport Operational Losses
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:12 am
by Yaab
So instead of trying to intercept transports over the destination with LRCAP or leaking CAP, it is enough to keep the airfield damage at 100% and no supplies will get through, right?
RE: Air Transport Operational Losses
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:34 am
by BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: Yaab
So instead of trying to intercept transports over the destination with LRCAP or leaking CAP, it is enough to keep the airfield damage at 100% and no supplies will get through, right?
I fall back on the first four words of that last post I made! [:D]
RE: Air Transport Operational Losses
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:07 pm
by Yaab
Heheh, just tested the whole thing.
Added airfield level 1 to a Japanese island of Ulleungdo (location 320). 100% airfield runway and 100% service runway damage. Ordered 36 transport aircraft from Mukden to fly supplies to tho island. All aircraft at 2300 capacity = 1 supply point.
Ulleungdo supply:
Turn 1: 170
Turn 2: 205
Aircraft operational:31
Missions flown: 34 pilots flew 1 mission, one pilot flew 2 missions, one pilot flew 0 missions.
No message during AIR TRANSPORT PHASE about supplies being flown or dropped.
Bug, feature?
Isolated Ulleungdo bumps its supply from 170 to 205 thanks to brave pilots from Mukden. No airfield, no problem!
RE: Air Transport Operational Losses
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:31 pm
by HansBolter
I don't understand why you would assume that a trashed airfield would preclude air supply.
Wouldn't the lack of an operational airfield on the receiving end simply change the mission to an airdropping of supply instead of an air transport of supply?
RE: Air Transport Operational Losses
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:32 pm
by Shark7
Well at least it seems that they are dropping supplies, even if no one informs you about it.
That also leads me to wonder...I remember in the vanilla WiTP (or was it PacWar), you would see the transports delivering supplies at the end of each turn, so you knew they were being delivered. I don't see that anymore. Granted I have my setting so that most of the phases are at 0.0 or 0.5 sec delay, so it could be my settings or just be going through it so fast I can't see it.
So as you point out, is the no message thing working as intended, a bug, or a possibly a result of our settings?
RE: Air Transport Operational Losses
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:42 pm
by Yaab
ad HansBolter.
How would I know, since there is no message about supplies being dropped?
Also, 35 supply increase means every aircraft dropped the supplies successfully. Aren't they supposed to lose some of the stuff on the drop?
RE: Air Transport Operational Losses
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 4:49 pm
by LoBaron
ORIGINAL: Yaab
Aren't they supposed to lose some of the stuff on the drop?
No. The only difference is the range. Noone bothers to read the manual anymore.
7.2.4.3 DROPPING SUPPLY
Supply can be dropped to a friendly unit not in a base up to the Normal range of the carrying
aircraft.
7.2.4.4 AIR TRANSPORTING SUPPLY BETWEEN BASES
Supply can be moved between friendly bases up to half (50%) the Maximum range of the
carrying aircraft.
RE: Air Transport Operational Losses
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:29 pm
by HansBolter
ORIGINAL: Shark7
Well at least it seems that they are dropping supplies, even if no one informs you about it.
That also leads me to wonder...I remember in the vanilla WiTP (or was it PacWar), you would see the transports delivering supplies at the end of each turn, so you knew they were being delivered. I don't see that anymore. Granted I have my setting so that most of the phases are at 0.0 or 0.5 sec delay, so it could be my settings or just be going through it so fast I can't see it.
So as you point out, is the no message thing working as intended, a bug, or a possibly a result of our settings?
Something HAS changed.
I used to see a text flash message for each and every air transport mission.
Recently I noticed that I am now only seeing one flash message per base, no matter how many squadrons at that base are flying the AT mission.
RE: Air Transport Operational Losses
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:56 pm
by BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: HansBolter
ORIGINAL: Shark7
Well at least it seems that they are dropping supplies, even if no one informs you about it.
That also leads me to wonder...I remember in the vanilla WiTP (or was it PacWar), you would see the transports delivering supplies at the end of each turn, so you knew they were being delivered. I don't see that anymore. Granted I have my setting so that most of the phases are at 0.0 or 0.5 sec delay, so it could be my settings or just be going through it so fast I can't see it.
So as you point out, is the no message thing working as intended, a bug, or a possibly a result of our settings?
Something HAS changed.
I used to see a text flash message for each and every air transport mission.
Recently I noticed that I am now only seeing one flash message per base, no matter how many squadrons at that base are flying the AT mission.
It is easy to miss the message - it flashes by briefly at the very end of the Afternoon Air Phase. It is not a combat so it will not show up under the delay setting for air combat, just the one for General Messages, I have mine set for .5 seconds and I often hit [ESC] to skip by all the recon messages so the air transport message scoots right by too.
RE: Air Transport Operational Losses
Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:04 am
by Yaab
I have had zero messages in both tests during AIR TRANSPORT PHASE.
RE: Air Transport Operational Losses
Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:13 am
by BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: Yaab
I have had zero messages in both tests during AIR TRANSPORT PHASE.
That is strange. I still see them but I am playing a stock GC. And I did not upgrade to Win 10. Who knows what Microsoft is doing with your transports!
RE: Air Transport Operational Losses
Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:02 am
by Yaab
I am on Win XP, scen 100( Andy updated scenario 1).
I do get those messages when I fly to undamaged airfields.
RE: Air Transport Operational Losses
Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:29 am
by LoBaron
After all those years, why are you hunting for messges in the replay? Simply check the op report file.
RE: Air Transport Operational Losses
Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:01 am
by Yaab
LoBaron, you are golden!
OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR Dec 08, 41
Troops from 51st Nav Gd lost to accident during amphibious unloading from TF 15
Coastwatcher sighting: 10 Allied ships at 77,61 near Hong Kong , Speed unknown
9 x Ki-57-I Topsy transporting supplies to Ulleungdo
9 x Ki-57-I Topsy transporting supplies to Ulleungdo
9 x Ki-57-I Topsy transporting supplies to Ulleungdo
9 x Ki-57-I Topsy transporting supplies to Ulleungdo
Japanese forces CAPTURE Makin !!!
2nd Hikotai IMAF arrives at Changchun
----
Still don't know if they landed to deliver the supplies or just dropped them.
RE: Air Transport Operational Losses
Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 11:28 am
by BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: Yaab
LoBaron, you are golden!
OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR Dec 08, 41
Troops from 51st Nav Gd lost to accident during amphibious unloading from TF 15
Coastwatcher sighting: 10 Allied ships at 77,61 near Hong Kong , Speed unknown
9 x Ki-57-I Topsy transporting supplies to Ulleungdo
9 x Ki-57-I Topsy transporting supplies to Ulleungdo
9 x Ki-57-I Topsy transporting supplies to Ulleungdo
9 x Ki-57-I Topsy transporting supplies to Ulleungdo
Japanese forces CAPTURE Makin !!!
2nd Hikotai IMAF arrives at Changchun
----
Still don't know if they landed to deliver the supplies or just dropped them.
If they landed at a field that is 100% damaged your op losses should be very high. But then again the game doesn't always model what we think should happen ....
What about the figures for the amount that should have been carried by the aircraft that flew vs. the amount that the base received (I presume you will also have to add in the base daily use since that would be deducted from the inventory at the end of the turn)?