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Turn 9. Kiev falls and that's enough for Stalin to have another paranoid episode. The NKVD arrests and shoots the generals of 22. Army in the north, and 47. Army in the south. Their replacements are actually slightly better. I'm getting lucky here on the executions so far, none of my star army generals have been touched.

Activations were very sketchy this turn.

I'm forced to bank 10 PPs but was planning on doing so anyways.

Meanwhile, up north Totenkopf is trying to pull a fast one and sneak around my flank. And all I've got here are some conscripts. Otherwise I make some minor adjustments and dig in the woods. Worried about Narva. 18. Army looks like it has almost arrived there.

In the center I'm trying to plug the gap north of Kalinin, but forces nearby are marching at a snail's paice. +44 initiative in this theater but all sorts of poor activation rolls this turn.

I launched a massive counterattack against PG2 near Bryansk and it fails miserably. The German is relocating his FSB to Smolensk, which means the panzers will be idle for the next couple of turns at least. If I can get some better activations next turn we will try this again on PG2.

I can't muster the strength to hit PG3, alas, due to having to cover my northern flank.

Down south I'm pretty close to my new MLR, which is fairly solidly based in the south on terrain features. Further north it's out in the open and quite vulnerable. There is practically nothing here west of Voronezh to defend in.

Forces near Kirovograd smash the 5. Romanian division. Trying to hold on to this location. It's an FSB staging point. But I see no mobile units in this area. PG1 must be directly east of Kiev. That is interesting.

I wonder if he intends to send Kleist north to assist AGC? There's a 50% chance during each Fuhrer conference that Moscow is designated as the priority target. (The other 2 have a 25% chance.) And he's saving fuel. Maybe enough to sustain a full 3 PG in the center.

Meanwhile, the Odessa defenders are down to nubs but still somehow holding out. They won't last much longer.

We're up to turn 14 now and Moscow is on the edge of falling. I estimate it will fall sometime in September. There is nothing I can do to stop this. Attempts to counterattack his panzer wedges have failed every time. Defensively I can stop him only very occasionally. Even the most stoutly defended hexes usually fall to attacks.

My preliminary observations of the patch:

1. Reinforcement schedule is now way too difficult on the Soviets. They will immediately need to send a minimum of two armies to Leningrad, since the new setup makes it possible to destroy pretty much the entire border armies up north. And even with that, you'll be challenged to hold on to Leningrad. I'm going to make it here I think, but only just.

Without those two armies early on you won't be getting anything in the center until turn 4-5. By which point all reinforcement points west of Smolensk will be flipped over.

2. Don't count on FSB relocations stopping the Germans. MT has shown how to negate the logistics engine, largely. He just puts all his panzers on sustained offensive. They don't really need the blitz bonus to grind forward. Furthermore, they can hold ground in SO posture, which isn't true when they are on blitz. They can be easily counterattacked in blitz posture. But a 4 division panzer wedge in the open set on SO? Not so much. I've tried hitting such things on 4 sides with massive forces, all regulars. Doesn't work.

3. People are griping about the opener being too hard on the Germans. I didn't notice this hurting MT at all. He made maximum use of the new opener, which in fact helps the German up north and accelerates their advance on Leningrad by a good turn. Which leads back to point 1.

I've already indicated to MT in email that if we play this again with this set of rules, I'm going to ask for a handicap. I don't feel I need this in 1.01 (the reinforcement schedule alone solves many problems) but this Beta definitely favors the Axis.

Also, the new Soviet command card costs are probably too high.

By the time you can get defensive posture down to a reasonable cost, you won't need it or the game will be over. I've only just begun lowering it. That card should be set back to its old cost. Right now defensive posture is a minimum 35 PP investment (to get it down to 5 PPs, which is still way too expensive) and probably more like 60 PPs. Good luck with that.

Did you make any mistake, anything you will not be doing next game you play?

Nothing major. That is why I'm going to ask for a handicap under these rules, at least against MT.

Possibly I could've placed my forts better. And fallen back a bit quicker in the center instead of putting up as much fight as I did near Vyazma and Bryank. There is a better defensive line than that.

But I didn't anticipate that MT would simply ignore the effects of the FSB relocation and keep moving. I was expecting a pause in operations. Never happened. So the MLR I chose wasn't ready yet. He bounced it before it was ready. And it all snowballed from there. The other two theaters I think I had under control.

Which is frankly kind of borked. I think SO is way too forgiving in this game for the mobile units. It needs to cost more than it does.

The better line, btw, is Orel-Kaluga-forest-Kalinin. There's only a couple of completely clear hexes in that line. Everything else is wooded, a town, or behind a river. Given time to prepare and dig, much tougher than the line I picked. I just didn't think I'd need to fall that far back. And when I was forced back there I never got a chance to dig in. There's also some marsh there which is completely impassable for mobile units.

There is the turn of "disruption" that comes with changing posture. Did MT keep the panzer units off the line that turn or were you just not in a position to attack at that time?

Looking at his wedge near Bryansk I have to ask (not yet having played the SU, maybe next game!) what is your capacity to flood the open areas he seems to be leaving both north and south of that position? If possible I think I'd be looking to make a push on the FSB at Smolensk, it seems pretty lightly defended. I'd think he would have to react to that!

Am pretty sure he refitted and changed postures at the same time, and this happened before moving the FSB forward. When they appeared next to the MLR, they had already switched postures and have been in action without pause since, and during the time he moved the FSB to Smolensk.

The screens you are looking at are out of date. I'm literally fighting 3-4 hexes from Moscow at the moment, and hanging for my life. Smolensk may as well be on the moon. The game is now on turn 15, late August.

Note that ALL the panzer groups are on SO posture now, not just in AGC. But I've got the others under control more or less. They all switched over a while ago and are probably going to stay in SO for the rest of the game. I'd be delighted to see them go over to blitz. Then they'd actually have to worry about fuel, and I'd be able to counterattack them. But these panzer wedges are more or less untouchable.

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Nothing major. That is why I'm going to ask for a handicap under these rules, at least against MT.

Just to say tx for an insightful AAR. I would guess that it is hard to balance a game for a community of players with a wide range of skills. Most people seem to have a hard time playing the Germans past the first turns...


But the biggest news I am taking from your AAR is that Panzer Groups are OK in `Sustained Offensive' mode, it may be that the designers have not explored that possibility in enough detail and underestimated fuel consumption with that option. I am interested in seeing more players trying it...including myself. Also, Winter is coming...don't despair* and maybe soon it will be MT complaining for an unbalanced game!

*I 'd also argue that if the goal is to 'feel' like the historical operational commander(s) of STAVKA, then the game is working out pretty well for you It was only by mid December that the mood at Stavka became more upbeat.

Heh. MT is a machine, but I already knew that from WITE days, that's why we're playing. He's definitely doing much better with the Germans here than most.

Sustained offensive is more than fine for the panzers. I actually think it's better once you clear out the border armies.

Between your focus card and the luftwaffe you can still pile on plenty of bonuses on the panzers, and not having to pause for fuel is pretty huge.

It's a long ways to mud. All of September and half of October. I don't think I'm gonna make it, unless I get some random summer mud, which has only happened once this game.

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx


Sustained offensive is more than fine for the panzers. I actually think it's better once you clear out the border armies.

Between your focus card and the luftwaffe you can still pile on plenty of bonuses on the panzers, and not having to pause for fuel is pretty huge.

underestimated fuel consumption with that option.

Right, what I had badly worded before is that maybe the current engine underestimates panzer fuel consumption when in 'sustained offensive' mode, making it easy for
MT to push East..ala Stolfi's `Panzers east'

When I was active on the WITE boards, Michael T was one of the absolute best players with the Germans. Flav was one of the best Russian players as well.

I have been watching the comments and following several AARs and the game looks intriguing. It also seems the game suffers some of the issues that WITE had. By that I mean it is very difficult to get the game to "feel" right and be "balanced". One of the biggest difficulties in this would be with the Axis balance in part because of the skill of a very few masters like Michael leave everyone else in the dust. Make it balanced for them and it becomes almost hopeless for an average player to run the Axis.

I am also interested to see how the AI does as well, but I see a lot of stuff still a WIP with input from the community, etc.

Thanks for taking the time to put together a entertaining AAR Flav and I see Michael hasn't lost his touch at all.

The AI is easy. I moved on to PBEM once I got a win with both sides against the AI.

This is a great game for PBEM, because it goes quickly. You can knock out an entire game in 2-4 weeks, at least with a conscientious opponent like MT. He's actually been a joy to play with, both for his skill and gaming etiquette.

Ok this is the situation as of turn 15.

Leningrad just got cut off, which kind of surprised me. What does it take to stop these panzers?

This is why SO is so great. He'd never have the fuel to pull this off in blitz mode.

The massive Leningrad pocket is all in supply and still full of fight, that's the good news. And I'm still holding on to Luga and Narva, which means no Finns. It's not a tight pocket, but I can't seem to lay a finger on the panzers at all. Not a single attack against them has worked since turn 2 anywhere.

55. Army, which I had just dropped on Leningrad the prior turn, is now unable to receive units. Shoulda put that in Tikhvin, but there were already 2 armies there and its getting crowded.

It's Katy bar the door time in Moscow.

3 regular armies will arrive next turn. Too little too late? That's 27 divisions.

If I drop them in Moscow, chances are they'll get cut off and be unable to receive reinforcement, just like 55. Army in Leningrad.

He's grinding his way to Rostov, but I have a lot of stuff incoming.

At the end of August AGC is adjacent to Moscow on 3 hexes. The garrison is well dug in but as soon as the siege guns arrive, this is done, so I have conceded the game. There is no chance whatever that I can evict the German from this position.

I wish you would have stuck with it a few more turn. It was your game and your game to call, but you must have known that his panzers were tired and the trucks must have been running short to.


Good read, thanks for doing the AAr.