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ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: brian brian

if I recall correctly, Nagumo had a couple of the Kongo class BattleCruisers with him? (these are good for SB missions in WiF, actually)

where were the older Japanese BBs in December, 1941? Java? Philippines?

warspite1

The Kongos were reclassified as battleships after their reconstruction between the wars.

Yes he had two. The two other battleships of the class were needed to cover the Malayan landings. Not sure what the other battleships were doing (story of the Japanese battlefleet in WWII really [8|]) although I suspect their speed would have precluded them from operating with the carriers.

I'll have a closer look later.

The "main" grouping of battleships was part of a force called the "distant cover force" along with the Carrier Hosho and were designated to cover the First Air fleet (Pearl attack force) as they withdrew from the attack on Pearl. The group set sail and hung around the Bonin Islands and then returned home when it was clear there was no pursuit.

Ise, Hyuga, Yamashiro, and Fuso were all close to the same in terms of combat ability with 12 14 inch guns and a speed of around 25 knots. Nagato at this time was the fleet flagship and along with Mutsu, had 8 16 inch guns and could steam at close to 26 knots. None of these would be considered suitable to run with a carrier task force not to mention trying to keep them fueled for extended operations would have been problematic.

The 4 Kongos were rebuilt the second time with the idea they would be fast escorts for the carriers. They featured a speed of around 30 knots, which is fast enough to keep up with the carriers the Japanese had and appeared to be designed to protect the carriers from enemy heavy crusiers as they would be inferior to any other battleship they ran across. (Technically from a Japanese point of view, this wasn't important as they would be faster than any known American battleship at the time). In their role, they could easily deal with enemy cruisers.

One of the issues with the Kongos that was later exposed is their AA armament was rather lacking, especially compared to their US/UK counterparts both in terms of quantity and quality. The Japanese likely considered AA a very secondary role and the air fleet would depend on planes as a primary defense.

Basically any US battleship was going to be superior to any Kongo in terms of gun power and armor. Having the Kongos come in for shore bombardment would have been extremely risky given that the Japanese had no idea at all where the US carriers were except it was clear they were not at Pearl when they attacked.

technical point - effective range (not max which is ~75% more) was over 7 miles for 14" guns. post modernization the maximum range was 20 miles. Battleships need spotters not getting in close to shore, so if it were to be done it would have to have been synchronized with at least a few planes for spotting...and I'm not sure how far the fleet was from pearl but 25 knots = ~ 600 mi/day

I wanted to note that Klydon made a great point in his earlier post about how the USN got good news from bad news over time with being forced to operate their CV groups and little else, after Pearl Harbor.

Imagine if Japan had simply invaded the Philippines without a strike on Pearl, how the US Battle Fleet would have been sent somewhere to do ... something ... what, who could be sure? This was called "War Plan Orange" I believe. I think it might have been ugly.

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I wanted to note that Klydon made a great point in his earlier post about how the USN got good news from bad news over time with being forced to operate their CV groups and little else, after Pearl Harbor.

warspite1

I made that point in post 2 of this thread [;)]

ORIGINAL: cfinch

technical point - effective range (not max which is ~75% more) was over 7 miles for 14" guns. post modernization the maximum range was 20 miles. Battleships need spotters not getting in close to shore, so if it were to be done it would have to have been synchronized with at least a few planes for spotting...and I'm not sure how far the fleet was from pearl but 25 knots = ~ 600 mi/day

I believe all Japanese battleships carried a couple of sea planes...

so then they key is how long to sail to within ~10 miles of shore to start shelling? Any idea the range the fleet was operating from?

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I wanted to note that Klydon made a great point in his earlier post about how the USN got good news from bad news over time with being forced to operate their CV groups and little else, after Pearl Harbor.

warspite1

I made that point in post 2 of this thread [;)]

Somehow I can remember the events of a war before I was born than something from just a month ago...

ORIGINAL: brian brian

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I wanted to note that Klydon made a great point in his earlier post about how the USN got good news from bad news over time with being forced to operate their CV groups and little else, after Pearl Harbor.

warspite1

I made that point in post 2 of this thread [;)]

Somehow I can remember the events of a war before I was born than something from just a month ago...

warspite1

Tell me about it. The wonders of the brain and the vagaries of memory. I can remember who won the FA Cup in 1903, and assorted other crap, but I couldn't tell you anything of any use... or indeed what I did five minutes ago....even if what I did five minutes ago was interesting....which it probably wasn't....but I don't know as I can't remember..... [:@]


[:D]

ORIGINAL: cfinch

so then they key is how long to sail to within ~10 miles of shore to start shelling? Any idea the range the fleet was operating from?

The Japanese task force was around 200 miles north of Pearl Harbor.

Another issue of a bombardment is the length of a "high speed run" in terms of fuel consumption.

Much like aircraft, the difference between "cruising speed" and "full speed" in terms of fuel consumption is dramatic. Running in 200 miles and back out at close to 30 knots represent 13-14 hours of steaming round trip.

Actually the USA Forces at Hawaii were set in "alert status" since months.
So there was battle readyness, on the paper. The fact they've been kept in alert status for months though, without anything happening, is what brought the deployed forces to pratically not take the state of alert being pratically still on after a while.

I doubt in realistic terms a surprise invasion of the Hawaii could have been doable. On the other hand if the Japanese were to actually achieve a full success at the Hawaii (like, nailing in also the USA Carriers in the docks...) probably they would have got the free way in once the oil was flowing from the Dutch Indies. (They could have blockaded the Hawaii, bombed them to hell and prevented reinforcements to come from the USA).

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: brian brian

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Tell me about it. The wonders of the brain and the vagaries of memory. I can remember who won the FA Cup in 1903, and assorted other crap, but I couldn't tell you anything of any use... or indeed what I did five minutes ago....even if what I did five minutes ago was interesting....which it probably wasn't....but I don't know as I can't remember..... [:@]


[:D]

They say memory is the second thing to go, but I forgot the first.

Well this looks like what we need [:)]

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=120787

36 pages - that will give you something to chew on for a bit.

ORIGINAL: brian brian

36 pages - that will give you something to chew on for a bit.

warspite1

Indeed.

So occasionally over the last many months since Warspite posted that link I have been chewing on that long thread on Axis History Forum - I think some of the posters in it should try a few wargames [;)]

And today after seeing 75th Anniversary coverage all day I definitely want to play some World in Flames, though self-employment still has it's way of prioritizing every minute of every day.

I think overall, when playing Japan, I still like to attempt a Pearl Harbor even if I know the odds are I won't catch the US carriers without risking a US DOW roll. It is just traditional? Is it good play to just smack the pile of BBs there and reduce them a little, or is it good play more in terms of keeping the USA from opening the war they way they wish? A USA surprise impulse on unprepared Japanese bases can be ugly, and ultimately every island hopped adds up at the end.

There is much more to "Initiative" in war than the Initiative die roll at the start of every turn of WiF.