Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: ndworl

I should put emojies where I intend a joke. No, we're used to foreign stars absolutely butchering the Aussie accent. I think the spelling of the name itself would give a clue that our man Coburn is American. I suspect an ancestor would have called himself Cockburn.

warspite1

[:D]

I am glad you agree he made a right Cockburn of the accent.

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Having done so, I actually am not convinced that Mr Ebert even saw the film.

It would have been nice if he'd watched the film before commenting on it.....

What's your point? [&:]

"I think the "outcast" referred to was AVM Leigh-Mallory who wanted to form the fighters into a "big wing" before attacking so as to overwhelm the escorts and get to the bombers. IIRC the movie shows AVM Park (in charge of fighter tactics) favouring each flight going into the attack immediately so they could come down and rearm/refuel quicker and go back again.
The movie shows a point at which the big wing tactic is tried and portrays it as a big success. But this article I just read says the claims of aircraft shot down by the big wing method were thought to be exaggerated by some, which precipitated a huge row.
https://www.military-history.org/articl ... nders.html "

I thought that the movie did a decent job of showing how the big wings were ineffective until the Luftwaffe switched their targets to the cities which were deeper into England. When they were bombing the airfields and air defense installations of SE Anglia the big wings were unable to get organized quickly enough to defend those bases. Whether or not they shot down as many aircraft as claimed, well that has always been a question for the historians to puzzle out later, hasn't it?

at what point did Christopher Plummer actually stop and stare moodily out of the bedroom window and at what point was Susannah York looking pensive on the bed? Must have missed that.

Of course you did, as you said.[:D]

However, when Christopher Plummer stares out of the window and Susannah York looks pensive on the bed, I shall of course turn my head away. I don't want that scene spoiling the film.....

ORIGINAL: rustysi

at what point did Christopher Plummer actually stop and stare moodily out of the bedroom window and at what point was Susannah York looking pensive on the bed? Must have missed that.

Of course you did, as you said.[:D]

However, when Christopher Plummer stares out of the window and Susannah York looks pensive on the bed, I shall of course turn my head away. I don't want that scene spoiling the film.....

warspite1

Very good rustyi, very good [:)]. However, I did watch the scene, and no, like much of what that idiot accused the film of, it didn't actually happen. There were a few things Susannah York looked in that scene, pensive wasn't the obvious word to use.


[Director] Come on Susannah, can't you try and look a bit more pensive?
[Susannah] What does pensive mean?
[Director] Er.... no idea love, just do what comes naturally. Right Plummer, after you've given her what for, I want you to go and stare out the window.
[Christopher] Stare? What sort of stare?
[Director] Moodily like in those phoney war movies from 1940.
[Christopher] Yes but won't some idiot reviewer criticise me if I do that?
[Director] It doesn't matter, he will criticise you for doing it, even if you don't....

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

"I think the "outcast" referred to was AVM Leigh-Mallory who wanted to form the fighters into a "big wing" before attacking so as to overwhelm the escorts and get to the bombers. IIRC the movie shows AVM Park (in charge of fighter tactics) favouring each flight going into the attack immediately so they could come down and rearm/refuel quicker and go back again.
The movie shows a point at which the big wing tactic is tried and portrays it as a big success. But this article I just read says the claims of aircraft shot down by the big wing method were thought to be exaggerated by some, which precipitated a huge row.
https://www.military-history.org/articl ... nders.html "

I thought that the movie did a decent job of showing how the big wings were ineffective until the Luftwaffe switched their targets to the cities which were deeper into England. When they were bombing the airfields and air defense installations of SE Anglia the big wings were unable to get organized quickly enough to defend those bases. Whether or not they shot down as many aircraft as claimed, well that has always been a question for the historians to puzzle out later, hasn't it?

warspite1

I just don't think by any stretch of the definition, Leigh-Mallory could be considered an outcast. If Ebert meant Leigh-Mallory then he used the wrong word. If he meant someone else then, using the definition of outcast correctly, I have no idea who he is talking about.

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Having done so, I actually am not convinced that Mr Ebert even saw the film.

It would have been nice if he'd watched the film before commenting on it.....

What's your point? [&:]

warspite1

My point is old boy, the guy has really wound me up! On re-watching the film yesterday, it becomes apparent that, given his comments, he couldn't have watched it. Now of course, we know he did watch it, so why spout the nonsense he did?

If he didn't like the film because the acting was poor/actors were mis-cast or the script was poor or the film was all lies or the director got the pace of the film wrong or Ben Affleck was in the film or you know, any of the usual reasons why someone does not like a film then fair enough - that's his opinion.

But a lot of the points he made are either simply untrue or exaggerated because he has nothing relevant to say. E.g. unless of course I fell asleep without realising it for part of the time, there was no 'little Red Cross nurse - brave or otherwise'. And the story of what was happening and why could not have been more laid on a plate if the director had decided to use the services of a narrator. We get to understand about the Battle for France being lost and thereafter, after some delay, the Germans turn to the UK. We are told about the Germans needing to wipe the RAF from the skies in order to launch an invasion - or at least force the RAF back over the Thames. We are told the position re the relative strengths of the forces involved. In other words this was not one of those films that needs a ton of brain power to understand.

But perhaps most bizarre was that his arguments were so devoid of substance that he actually started attacking this war film for showing too much war action. He admits 'there was a TV special about the authenticity of the movie', and that 'some of the aerial photography is very good. We see dogfights actually filmed in the air and fought by real planes (instead of by models and visual effects)'. So having admitted that, he is left scrabbling around for something to criticise and comes up with 'we see hundreds of German bombers, row after row, thundering across the sky to bomb London. But every one of the bombers moves at precisely the same speed, There's no relative change in position, or correcting for altitude. Nobody even dips a wing'. In a two-hour film those shots must have taken up in total about 2 minutes - and I am being generous, I don't think it was anything like that length of time.

Film critics are like politicians or anyone else - as soon as you have to lie and falsify to make your point, you are toast - and so is the argument you are making.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

And as for poor Ives.....his story killed me as a kid, and still does [:(]

And I do not even remember Ives. [:(]

I do not remember much at all about this movie. [:(]

warspite1

SPOLIER ALERT

[X(] Ormster! Nooooooooo

Ives was the little jockey from Scotland who, along with Steve McQueen, was the 'Cooler King' or 'the Mole'. But he was also 'wire happy' after 3 years in captivity. When the Germans find the tunnel during the 4th July celebrations, he flips and tries to climb the wire.....

Thank you.

Funny - a thread about a movie about Dunkirk and nobody has mentioned 'the film Dunkirk' .

Dunkirk is a 1958 British war film directed by Leslie Norman and starring John Mills, Richard Attenborough and Bernard Lee. It was based on two novels: Elleston Trevor's The Big Pick-Up and Lt. Col. Ewan Hunter and Maj. J. S. Bradford's Dunkirk.

Cast
John Mills as Cpl. "Tubby" Binns
Robert Urquhart as Pte. Mike Russell
Ray Jackson as Pte. Barlow
Meredith Edwards as Pte. Dave Bellman
Anthony Nicholls as Military spokesman
Bernard Lee as Charles Foreman
Michael Shillo as Jouvet, a French reporter
Richard Attenborough as John Holden
Sean Barrett as Frankie
Victor Maddern as Merchant seaman in pub (Maddern himself was a wartime merchant seaman)
Maxine Audley as Diana Foreman, Charles' wife
Bud Flanagan as Himself
Chesney Allen as Himself
Kenneth Cope as Lt. Lumpkin
Denys Graham as Pte. Fraser
Barry Foster as Despatch Rider, who directs Tubby to the artillery camp
Warwick Ashton as Battery sergeant major
Peter Halliday as Battery major in France
Ronald Hines as Pte. Miles (battery crew)
Roland Curram as Pte. Harper (battery crew)
John Welsh as Staff colonel
Lloyd Lamble as Staff colonel
Cyril Raymond as General Viscount Gort, VC
Nicholas Hannen as Vice-Admiral Ramsay at Dover
William Squire as Captain of minesweeper
Eddie Byrne as Commander (Tough's Yard)
Patricia Plunkett as Grace Holden, John's wife
Michael Gwynn as Commander at Sheerness
Michael Bates as Froome
Fred Griffiths as Old Sweat
Christopher Rhodes as Sergeant on the beaches
Lionel Jeffries as Medical colonel
Harry Landis as Dr. Levy, a military doctor working on the beach
John Horsley as Padre
Patrick Allen as Sergeant on parade ground

"I think the "outcast" referred to was AVM Leigh-Mallory who wanted to form the fighters into a "big wing" before attacking so as to overwhelm the escorts and get to the bombers.

The "outcast" is much more likely to be Dowding, who was, after all, shockingly sacked very soon after the battle and replaced by Sholto Douglas, an advocate of big wings. He had already postponed his retirement twice and his willingness to stand up to Churchill for what he believed in did him no favours politically. Leigh Mallory was Sholto Douglas and Fighter Command's blue eyed boy who got his wish to replace Keith Park at the same time. Post war RAF wargames demonstrated that the big wing concept was totally unsuited to the situation and would have lost the Battle of Britain, had Park adopted them.

IIRC the movie shows AVM Park (in charge of fighter tactics) favouring each flight going into the attack immediately so they could come down and rearm/refuel quicker and go back again.

There was more to it than just achieving a quicker turnaround. The German air formations formed up and climbed to operational altitude over France. This was quite a lengthy process. British radar monitored this, but until the German planes crossed the coast, radar couldn't determine which course they would take so there was no point in scrambling the fighters. When Park's fighters did scramble, they also needed time to form up and climb to altitude, time that they couldn't afford to waste forming big wings. The German bombers could reach London in less than 20 minutes after they crossed the French coast, so for 11 group it was very much a matter of getting there as soon as they could with what they could once they had identified the bombers' course.

The movie shows a point at which the big wing tactic is tried and portrays it as a big success. But this article I just read says the claims of aircraft shot down by the big wing method were thought to be exaggerated by some, which precipitated a huge row.

The big wings' successes were rather few and far between. What really made the difference on September 15th was that the Luftwaffe put out a maximum effort, coming over in a succession of waves. Luftwaffe intelligince was abysmal. They totally underestimated Fighter Command's remaining strength. This was to have been the day they eliminated Fighter Command as a fighting force by destroying the last few dozen spitfires and hurricanes. Their aircrew were shocked by the numbers of fighters Park threw at them. These fighters weren't supposed to exist. To get through them all, reach London, and then find 12 Group's big wing descending on them destroyed their faith in their own leadership.

It added to the drama that Churchill chose that day to visit Fighter Command's control center. This has always been portrayed as a coincidence, but of course we now know that Churchill was kept fully briefed on the most important ULTRA intercepts, so perhaps it wasn't the coincidence we have been led to believe?

It looks pretty promising !

ORIGINAL: Iron Duke

Funny - a thread about a movie about Dunkirk and nobody has mentioned 'the film Dunkirk' .

Dunkirk is a 1958 British war film directed by Leslie Norman and starring John Mills, Richard Attenborough and Bernard Lee. It was based on two novels: Elleston Trevor's The Big Pick-Up and Lt. Col. Ewan Hunter and Maj. J. S. Bradford's Dunkirk.

Cast
John Mills as Cpl. "Tubby" Binns
Robert Urquhart as Pte. Mike Russell
Ray Jackson as Pte. Barlow
Meredith Edwards as Pte. Dave Bellman
Anthony Nicholls as Military spokesman
Bernard Lee as Charles Foreman
Michael Shillo as Jouvet, a French reporter
Richard Attenborough as John Holden
Sean Barrett as Frankie
Victor Maddern as Merchant seaman in pub (Maddern himself was a wartime merchant seaman)
Maxine Audley as Diana Foreman, Charles' wife
Bud Flanagan as Himself
Chesney Allen as Himself
Kenneth Cope as Lt. Lumpkin
Denys Graham as Pte. Fraser
Barry Foster as Despatch Rider, who directs Tubby to the artillery camp
Warwick Ashton as Battery sergeant major
Peter Halliday as Battery major in France
Ronald Hines as Pte. Miles (battery crew)
Roland Curram as Pte. Harper (battery crew)
John Welsh as Staff colonel
Lloyd Lamble as Staff colonel
Cyril Raymond as General Viscount Gort, VC
Nicholas Hannen as Vice-Admiral Ramsay at Dover
William Squire as Captain of minesweeper
Eddie Byrne as Commander (Tough's Yard)
Patricia Plunkett as Grace Holden, John's wife
Michael Gwynn as Commander at Sheerness
Michael Bates as Froome
Fred Griffiths as Old Sweat
Christopher Rhodes as Sergeant on the beaches
Lionel Jeffries as Medical colonel
Harry Landis as Dr. Levy, a military doctor working on the beach
John Horsley as Padre
Patrick Allen as Sergeant on parade ground

In 1958 Hollywood had most of the distribution network in North America locked up and unless a British film made a deal with them it did not play here. I know Canada would have been interested in the film, not so sure about US audiences which were getting lots of stories about their own forces in the war.

That last statement may seem presumptive, but how many have seen the excellent Canadian film Hyena Road, about the war in Afghanistan?

"It added to the drama that Churchill chose that day to visit Fighter Command's control center. This has always been portrayed as a coincidence, but of course we now know that Churchill was kept fully briefed on the most important ULTRA intercepts, so perhaps it wasn't the coincidence we have been led to believe?"


The movie was released in 1969 and the news about Ultra wasn't released to the public until the 1970s, so perhaps the fiim's writers can be forgiven for this minor confusion.

I wasn't knocking the film. In fact I got the idea from an article on the second DVD of the special edition. They pointed out that Dowding had been making use of Ultra intercepts, but hadn't been able to say it when they talked to him about the film because the Official Secrets Act still covered it. I just extrapolated that when I realised that Churchill must have seen the same intercepts.

Just saw "Rogue One" tonight. A good enough movie in and of itself.

One of the trailers that must have been five minutes long was of "Dunkirk". Smashingly good view of a film. Very nicely done. I had to explain *in detail* to my son afterwards what Dunkirk was all about. Exquisite trailer. Job well done. Jolly jolly good. Chip chip cheerio.

Anyhow...I shall be seeing this movie at the first opportunity. [8D]

My thoughts on movie/book reviews and reviewers in general. Read a bunch of reviews for movies you liked and ones you hated. Find a couple of reviewers whose general opinions matched yours, and read those going forward. Ignore everyone else.

Mike

ORIGINAL: rustysi

ORIGINAL: SheperdN7

Yes, Christopher Nolan directing. Loved Inception and TDK Trilogy, here's hoping that he can get the pure desperation feeling to appear in this movie.

I think Dunkirk would probably be the hardest war movie ever to make, simply because of the sheer size and scale of that evacuation and the amount of desperation and what was at stake.

You mean like 'Overlord'.[:D] Think 'The Longest Day'. Good movie for Hollywood at that time. Oh, wait you're 'just a whippersnapper', you don't go back that far.[:D]

I thought The Longest Day was terrific when it first came out and I was a young-un. I watched it a couple months ago free on Amazon Prime and thought it was lame. The 2 best war movies, IMO, are Tora Tora Tora and Das Boot.

Like Chickenboy's, my boys saw Rogue One last night. When they got home, all the oldest (he's 22) wanted to talk about was the trailer for Dunkirk. He said it was exceptionally well done. We looked for it on You Tube, but could only find a different (and, according to him, good but not great) trailer.

We just watched Rogue One and the preview was very impressive.

Unlike Dan's boys all mine can do is talk ONLY about Rogue One!

Dan has raised his son right... [:'(]