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RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:41 pm
by adarbrauner
ORIGINAL: Xargun
How many copies has Matrix sold? has to be a couple thousand.
Has to be at least three times more;
I would not be that much surprised either if it has surpassed the 10.000, with 6000-8000 as the probable.
btw 10.000 sales is still not that money enough to develope a high quality game
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:52 pm
by Grfin Zeppelin
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin
I see, thanks for the answers.
It has however an amazingly long shelflife [:D]
The game requires amazingly long effort to play, so we OCD people tend to stick with it!
Well OCD or not there is no alternative for this game. I know a guy who owns it for several years, he never really played it but often fires it up to look at the ships, map and stuff.
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:21 pm
by Alfred
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin
Was the game comcercially successfull ?
Marginally I think - in large part from the buzz in this forum and user-created mods that keep it interesting to newcomers.
If it were a big hit Matrix et al would have funded a similar project to update it again.
That isn't the problem.
The problem is that there isn't the "talent" knocking down the doors to do a new game. WITPS has been valiantly trying to point out that it is all much more complex. Read my post (#50), Bullwinkle's (#53) and wdolson's (#55) in this March 2016 thread:
tm.asp?m=4049409&mpage=2&key=�
to get an inkling of what is required.
The team which was assembled to form Henderson Field Design was not just big, it was very talented. I look at the current Modders sub forum and the same talent level is not there. To produce a commercial product objectivity is required, not the subjective desire to "improve" one side. For a commercial product no amount of what ifs, particularly when they have only the thinnest connection with real historical facts, can be substituted. That market is already well catered for by the HOI franchise.
Then there is the absolute commercial requirement of producing a product which caters to the solo player. The majority of purchasers are solo players who do not post. AE has been out for 8 years and as I have previously pointed out, no non AE dev has produced and published a single script. The first thing that Matrix would demand is a viable solo play game. Which in the context of what is regularly put forward in these WITP II wishful threads, would entail a new AI plus something to replace the scripts. Eight years of life and not a single non AE dev has exhibited any internal fortitude to undertake that task which alone would likely consume a work year.
Alfred
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:31 pm
by rustysi
I'll repeat one more time for the cheap seats. Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
Instead of wishing for this and that, to be quite honest I'm continually amazed at the depth and nuance that this game keeps showing. Are there items I would prefer are different, added, or changed? Yes, but you may not care for these nor I for your ideas. Besides a new product would be a different product and not necessarily better. I've been in the electronics/computer field for over 40 years now, and I'm constantly annoyed by new systems/software where functions are 'lost' because someone decided they were unneeded, unimportant, or simply unnoticed. Sometimes just not in the budget. The result being loss of functionality, at least in my eyes. With years put into this product I'll stick by it for at least the near future and most likely well beyond that.
So, is it perfect, no. We ever get perfect, not me. It is great fun though after all.[;)]
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:15 pm
by witpqs
ORIGINAL: Alfred
ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin
Was the game comcercially successfull ?
Marginally I think - in large part from the buzz in this forum and user-created mods that keep it interesting to newcomers.
If it were a big hit Matrix et al would have funded a similar project to update it again.
That isn't the problem.
The problem is that there isn't the "talent" knocking down the doors to do a new game. WITPS has been valiantly trying to point out that it is all much more complex. Read my post (#50), Bullwinkle's (#53) and wdolson's (#55) in this March 2016 thread:
tm.asp?m=4049409&mpage=2&key=�
to get an inkling of what is required.
The team which was assembled to form Henderson Field Design was not just big, it was very talented. I look at the current Modders sub forum and the same talent level is not there. To produce a commercial product objectivity is required, not the subjective desire to "improve" one side. For a commercial product no amount of what ifs, particularly when they have only the thinnest connection with real historical facts, can be substituted. That market is already well catered for by the HOI franchise.
Then there is the absolute commercial requirement of producing a product which caters to the solo player. The majority of purchasers are solo players who do not post. AE has been out for 8 years and as I have previously pointed out, no non AE dev has produced and published a single script. The first thing that Matrix would demand is a viable solo play game. Which in the context of what is regularly put forward in these WITP II wishful threads, would entail a new AI plus something to replace the scripts. Eight years of life and not a single non AE dev has exhibited any internal fortitude to undertake that task which alone would likely consume a work year.
Alfred
Right-O! Without the elite volunteer team we are probably talking about mid to high 7 figures US$, not a few hundred thousand.
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:51 pm
by pbiggar
I would be in as well, but the obstacles to producing decent working software are great.
Some questions that come to mind to help estimate the project:
- Do we know what was the size of the original project team, budget and duration?
- Would we have access to any of the existing source code, documentation or data - just assembling the data is a huge undertaking.
- In addition to a year for development, there must be 3-6 months of work to document and understand the requirements
- It feels to me like $500K+ to do it right. That would be 5000 units at $100 a pop.
Not enough wealthy geeks to fund it [&:]
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:58 pm
by Numdydar
Interesting discussion as always [:)]
A very similar chat is going on over on Steam with the developer of Darklands.
http://steamcommunity.com/app/327930/discussions/0/343788552550787364/
People are asking for a remake of that game and the developer is saying the exact same things that Alfred and other are about what is needed for AE 2.0 The difference is that one of the posters actually downloaded the free copy of Unity and put together a very rough prototype to show that he was serious about helping making a Darklands II.
We have lots of good people on this forum, so if we as a group really want an AE 2.0, then WE need to SHOW that we are serious by actually doing something to move the ball forward. If none of us, or not enough of us, are not willing to do so, then we are just howling at the moon by talking about what we want in a new version.
I will start the ball rolling and publicly state that I am willing to manage the project, do documentation, database management, and research for a new version. Plus anything else that does not require actual coding. Those days are long gone [:(].
So we have one person willing to commit to this. Anyone else willing?
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:11 am
by adarbrauner
I'd like to commit - but again not for coding or programming, for which I don't have knowledge moment being. Documentation, research, proposal of solutions for the game, etc.
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:25 am
by Numdydar
So we have three. Only about 30 to go if we look at the AE list of people involved lol.
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:33 am
by crsutton
ORIGINAL: Xargun
At $100 a pop it only requires 1000 people to hit $100K. How many copies has Matrix sold? has to be a couple thousand. And some people would donate more than $100. Heck personally I'd probably go $250 without blinking for this game - the return over the years is priceless.
You know, if you had just caught me last week I would be all in. But I just blew it all on a cheap hooker and a bottle of Jack Daniels. Now I got to go see the doctor. Maybe next time. [:D]
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:45 am
by pontiouspilot
I could have told you that corn mash crap would send you to Dr!!
On topic: I would pay for a re-make and an ongoing subscription. The subscription would ideally provide the sort of stuff covered by the betas, DBB, enhanced art and maps etc. I would have no issue paying for this and getting it in a format a fool (me) can download and apply.
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:02 pm
by Canoerebel
For you newbs, Ross (crsutton) had an encounter with a Chilean prostitute a number of years ago that left him quite jaded.
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:06 pm
by btd64
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
For you newbs, Ross (crsutton) had an encounter with a Chilean prostitute a number of years ago that left him quite jaded.
[:D][:'(][:D]....GP
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:08 pm
by witpqs
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
For you newbs, Ross (crsutton) had an encounter with a Chilean prostitute a number of years ago that left him quite jaded.
He's not much of a conversationalist. [:'(]
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:20 pm
by witpqs
ORIGINAL: pbiggar
I would be in as well, but the obstacles to producing decent working software are great.
Some questions that come to mind to help estimate the project:
- Do we know what was the size of the original project team, budget and duration?
- Would we have access to any of the existing source code, documentation or data - just assembling the data is a huge undertaking.
- In addition to a year for development, there must be 3-6 months of work to document and understand the requirements
- It feels to me like $500K+ to do it right. That would be 5000 units at $100 a pop.
More like that x10.
Not enough wealthy geeks to fund it [&:]
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:30 pm
by Jorge_Stanbury
But somehow there is a market for a half dozen Panzer General/ Close Combat clones that are launched every year [:(]
For me, even porting the old game into a more user friendly platform would be a win
My "tinfoil hat" guess is that Matrix prefers the more disposable games
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:02 pm
by RedLancer
Alfred is spot on. The challenges he highlights I can see in WitE2 although we do have a Team and are making progress.
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:14 pm
by rustysi
So we have one person willing to commit to this. Anyone else willing?
I could kick in some cash, and would be a willing 'beta tester', although I've never done it before.
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:52 am
by Barb
I am a software tester by occupation, so I can lend a hand in there, but nowhere near the FTE, nor even half time (you know the work, family, sleep and all the stuff...) [:D]
So I would like to participate somehow, but I am not sure how much would I be able to toss in (be it either in the specification/documentation/creation part of the project, or actual testing).
RE: A new WiTP Ae II Version
Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:36 am
by PaxMondo
ORIGINAL: Alfred
Then there is the absolute commercial requirement of producing a product which caters to the solo player. The majority of purchasers are solo players who do not post. AE has been out for 8 years and as I have previously pointed out, no non AE dev has produced and published a single script. The first thing that Matrix would demand is a viable solo play game. Which in the context of what is regularly put forward in these WITP II wishful threads, would entail a new AI plus something to replace the scripts. Eight years of life and not a single non AE dev has exhibited any internal fortitude to undertake that task which alone would likely consume a work year.
Alfred
Or more.
I've been working far longer than a year on scripts. The issue is testing, not writing scripts. The issue with testing is the farther you get from game start the longer it takes to test. A non-dev cannot create intermediate start points to test AI, the AI is set at game start. So ....
Having said that, you are correct. Only one dev had what it took to do the AI, he did all of it. An amazing effort that I appreciate every day.
Anticipating a question here: no, you cannot simply run dual AI to get forward in time to test. The AI will never perform at the same level as a human player, so the point that you want to test won't be accurate at all in terms of what your AI script will likely face. I learned that lesson almost 5 years ago. You have to play to the point where the AI acript(s) kick in and then see how they fare ...