Matrix Games Forums

I just want Command on 3.5" floppies for my IBM PC AT.

Lol... Guys... Have you had a logic course in life? And did you hear anything about the rules of the discussion?

I made a statement and gave arguments. If you want to participate in the discussion - you must bring counter-arguments to my position and refute my arguments.

Do not discuss me, do not discuss the results of your disrespectful behavior. Discuss only my arguments and refute them with your arguments. It's all. It's simple.

And I will not participate in virtual squabbles with anonymous characters. It's boring. [:-]

p.s.
Ad hominem is not an argument! [:-]

Counter arguments have been brought, and you don't seem to be listening to them.


This subject, the non-issue over a full DB editor, is not a new debate. It is a very old one and had been argued to death. Continuing to bring it up again and again doesn't help anyone.

You will just have to accept CMANO as is or, if you choose, don't play it.

So he won't answer questions and he lies. I guess logic is out the window.

ORIGINAL: HalfLifeExpert

Counter arguments have been brought, and you don't seem to be listening to them.


This subject, the non-issue over a full DB editor, is not a new debate. It is a very old one and had been argued to death. Continuing to bring it up again and again doesn't help anyone.

So you think it's useless? Excellent. I'm happy for you. But you decided not to raise these topics just for yourself. Not for me. [;)]

You will just have to accept CMANO as is or, if you choose, don't play it.

Huh... Why are you trying to control what I should do? It is a bad idea.

In addition, there are only two options just for you. And others may have other options. [;)]

For example, we can remind the developers of their huge mistake and try to look for some compromise options. Personal custom DB-editor or something like that.

Not trying to control you at all, just stating the reality. It is the end result of your demands.

I know full well why there is no full DB editor. It is something that the developers will not waiver on. You are simply wasting everyone's time trying to argue this.


By the way, to thewood1, I tried to send you a PM but your inbox is full, you might want to clean some stuff out [:)]

Cleared out a few messages

I fixed this quote to make it closer to reality...

"I can remind the developers of what I think is a huge mistake"

Yeah that's basically what he said in a nutshell.

spec111 ... you could apply to obtain the professional version of Command. The forum would expect full transparency as you negotiate the interview process. That would be a joy to follow.

Kevin

While I don't fully agree with OP, I do still support his sentiment for unlocking DB editing - I'm not talking about them actively creating a DB editor for us, but just for them to stop making their databases tamper-proof.

The main argument I've seen against allowing DB-editing, is that people will edit their DB, break some scenario, and then come to the forums and request help or changes to scenarios. I don't see that as an reasonable excuse however; in any other game, using mods or editing game files automatically means you're not in any way owed assistance from the developers or forum goers - why can't it be the same with CMANO? It's ultimately just a matter of applying tough love and getting those individuals to either find solutions to their own problems or having them post their questions in a subforum where it's left to good samaritans or those sufficiently curious to worry about. As for support tickets; just make them tick a box, asking if their game is running with an edited DB; if the answer is yes, redirect them to an FAQ / policy disclaimer that suggests that they post about it in the before-mentioned subforum.

As for knowing better than the devs; while I have no idea who the OP is, there are ex-military that use CMANO and some people who are SMEs on certain systems. Sometimes there are stats on mainstream pieces of equipment that are frankly nonsensical (eg, the Rafale's RBE2-AA having a range of 140nmi while an F-35's APG-81 has a range of 100nmi, despite the APG-81 using newer tech and having nearly double the T/R modules).

I've submitted change requests via the proper thread, they have been heard and I acknowledge that the devs are busy with a big backlog of this sort of stuff, but it has been 8 months since that request and back something like two (or three?) years ago (when the databases weren't locked) I already had fixes for these issues implemented, so my experience with CMANO's updates has sweet (Chains of War, etc) and sour (being forced to use vanilla databases).

Anyway, as HalfLifeExpert said, the devs do seem unlikely to waver on this matter, but I still don't agree with their decision and I do wish that they one day try a compromise. I'm inclined to inquire about CMANO Pro, but I don't think I've ever seen software aimed at military contractors go for less than 4 figures.

And I still come back to...this game has 20,000 units or so, the entire globe to work with, 1946 to 2025 for dates, the ability to build and save custom units, and that isn't enough? Really? And before you say, "well they don't have my favorite unit", think about how ridiculous it sounds to say you won't play the game any more because the devs won't open a database they spent years building and having to defend against people literally trying to steal it.

Do you think you could pay enough to the devs to open up the database and expose all their models just so you can have your favorite unit? How are the devs to know you don't want the db so you can go start building your own. I'll answer for you...they don't. So a few people come in here and think it is so simple to just open the db up and there are no negative repercussions.

Go look at the ridiculousness of the db thread. I have done this before a couple years ago. It is a mess and I can't believe the devs can sort anything out of that. The main contributors seem to be people seeing a blurry picture or read some obscure website with some fantasy specs on some fantasy weapon. Instead of complaining about how long it takes to have your favorite unit added, step up and help them clean it up. Call out stupid people out who think its cool to just dump a wiki cut & paste into that thread and let the devs sort it out.

I just took a quick glance and the majority, by far, of db requests are for units that no one will ever use. There is no plan to use them in a scenario. There is no attempt to look at what scenarios might be affected by a change. Most of the requests are just people obsessively trolling through books and Wikipedia. The solid requests get lost in all of that.

Also keep in mind the infrastructure around database editing that has to be built...

1) db editor and UI
2) In game error handling for bad db entries
3) Scenario/db management to keep people from loading the wrong db on a scenario...anyone remember the mess that Harpoon was never able to figure out with edited dbs and scenarios?
4) The update process for the game with all those custom databases out there, again, Harpoon showed the issues you can run into here.
5) Some kind of DRM that keeps people from stealing db information

I am sure I am missing something. People bought the game knowing this wasn't going to change any time soon. If you buy the game and then complain about it, its just stupid. Any particular unit touches maybe 99.99% of the game. The game is fully playable. There are many high-quality scenarios. The devs continue to update the database and the game. All for less than $100.

Its like the whole MP discussion. People have asked, the devs have answered, yet people still come back into the forum to give the devs grief about not doing it. Please move on. The devs will tell people when they change their minds, I assume. Also, coming into a thread where the OP was a complete asshat and even remotely supporting him doesn't win a lot of support.

I have people that work for me that will ask me for something and when I say no to the request, they turn around and tell people I didn't answer them. I did answer them, they just didn't like the answer. The devs have answered this multiple times in exactly the same way.

ORIGINAL: Dragon029

While I don't fully agree with OP, I do still support his sentiment for unlocking DB editing - I'm not talking about them actively creating a DB editor for us, but just for them to stop making their databases tamper-proof.

The main argument I've seen against allowing DB-editing, is that people will edit their DB, break some scenario, and then come to the forums and request help or changes to scenarios. I don't see that as an reasonable excuse however; in any other game, using mods or editing game files automatically means you're not in any way owed assistance from the developers or forum goers - why can't it be the same with CMANO? It's ultimately just a matter of applying tough love and getting those individuals to either find solutions to their own problems or having them post their questions in a subforum where it's left to good samaritans or those sufficiently curious to worry about. As for support tickets; just make them tick a box, asking if their game is running with an edited DB; if the answer is yes, redirect them to an FAQ / policy disclaimer that suggests that they post about it in the before-mentioned subforum.

As for knowing better than the devs; while I have no idea who the OP is, there are ex-military that use CMANO and some people who are SMEs on certain systems. Sometimes there are stats on mainstream pieces of equipment that are frankly nonsensical (eg, the Rafale's RBE2-AA having a range of 140nmi while an F-35's APG-81 has a range of 100nmi, despite the APG-81 using newer tech and having nearly double the T/R modules).

I've submitted change requests via the proper thread, they have been heard and I acknowledge that the devs are busy with a big backlog of this sort of stuff, but it has been 8 months since that request and back something like two (or three?) years ago (when the databases weren't locked) I already had fixes for these issues implemented, so my experience with CMANO's updates has sweet (Chains of War, etc) and sour (being forced to use vanilla databases).

Anyway, as HalfLifeExpert said, the devs do seem unlikely to waver on this matter, but I still don't agree with their decision and I do wish that they one day try a compromise. I'm inclined to inquire about CMANO Pro, but I don't think I've ever seen software aimed at military contractors go for less than 4 figures.

I respect you for presenting your argument maturely. While in most circumstances having the ability to mod a game would be great, the fact is the past experieces with Harpoon 3 and Database editing that the now-CMANO developers had to deal with were so crazy that it really does justify them not wanting to take any chances and risk that madness happening again.

Here's the main page for the story of why DB editing is not allowed: http://www.warfaresims.com/?p=1507

I agree with you!!!!

How about this way ?
Copy 1 database and let players can edit it,but still maintains the offical database update to do the next version.
[:)]

It always fascinates me how people with ideas, sometimes good ones, manage to short circuit them by their own behavior sometimes. I guess ideas are useless if the creator of them can’t get their point across effectively.

I for one fully understand why the DB is locked. This is simply not a fully moddable game. Most games are not. Nobody should have any expectation of a developer like Eagle Dynamics, PDMG, or Warfaresims to release their source code or anything like it. The only reason why people expect it is because Harpoon supported it and that's unfortunate. Command is more complex and since issues existed even in Harpoon, a game designed for DB editing, I'm sure there would be some issues here as well. Not only internal compatibility issues, but also stuff not working as players intended due to the complexity of parameters compared to Harpoon. But, before I heard the official explanation, I figured there may be many other reasons why the DB is not editable. Speculation, of course, but if one of the reasons are more acceptable to you than the official explanation, then feel free to speculate with me. My speculative reasons why they wouldn't unlock the database are: 1) they don't want custom databases with potentially classified (or equivalent non-public status) circulating around their forums (some other military sim forums are plagued by a small amount of apparently classified documents circulating), since they may be held accountable for this information showing up in their games, and 2) they want to make sure anyone who wants to use Command for professional purposes with their own data really does buy the professional version, so big companies don't sit there with the paltry $80 consumer version and conduct research that's worth thousands of dollars.

When a video game company gets involved with the professional life, no matter if it's A2A Simulations or Bohemia, these are the kinds of issues they run into, which may be totally alien to a the average video game consumer, who simply wants to spend their $20 allowance on an empowering action game.

As long as custom databases are limited to peoples PCs, and the "fixed" CWDB and DB3000 still exist and are the only databases "distributable" scenarios are accepted in, database editing would be cool. I wouldn't want it screwing over old scenarios and impact the sharing of scenarios however.

One thing though- why are so many people feeding the troll?

Edit No. 2- I suppose I am guilty of being a waiter as well...

Hi Ivan I take it you are not happy, I suggest if you require a platform added or modified you go through the correct routine of posting to the DB3K Platform request thread like everyone else, the DB Editors which includes me get tons of requests each week and we work through them in order of priority, also we do not work on Command full time as we do have life outside of it believe it or not, we do not expect the forum to turn into a slanging match because of attudes of some members "YOU" so I strongly suggest you tone it down..... the Cold War finished over 20 years ago we are all friends here , anymore issues I will lock the forum

ORIGINAL: HalfLifeExpert

ORIGINAL: Dragon029

I respect you for presenting your argument maturely. While in most circumstances having the ability to mod a game would be great, the fact is the past experieces with Harpoon 3 and Database editing that the now-CMANO developers had to deal with were so crazy that it really does justify them not wanting to take any chances and risk that madness happening again.

Here's the main page for the story of why DB editing is not allowed: http://www.warfaresims.com/?p=1507

Again. You see only one side of the problem. And you talk only about it.

You see only the developers, aka former modders, and a crowd of whining average players who go complaining about every bug, about every mistake they make, about the huge variety of custom databases, and so on.

Once again - it's a fact! I do not deny the experience of developers. I do not deny whining of average players. I saw it all from the side, because I was already playing in Harpoon in those years! I do not deny that for the situation - tired developers against the crowd of whining average players, hardcoded-DB is a good solution.

So the developers moved their modding experience to a new game and decided that it would function as an extended DB2000 in their ideal world. In the ideal world of "total monopoly of DB2000/EC2003"!

But the modders-developers did not take into account several facts. Once again - facts! Things are completely relevant to reality and not dependent on the views of the observer.

Already at that time, in the times of Harpoon 3 and Harpoon Classic, there were many experienced players who did not whine at forums, but modified their databases themselves. They exchanged their databases and scens with each other. And everyone was happy. It was a separate world away from the noise of DB2000 and EC2003 threads. And it existed parallel to DB2000 and was BETTER than it!

Modders-developers simply do not understand that there was another world and that he did not need DB2000 community. And this world moved from Harpoon to CMANO. And that for many people Harpoon\CMANO is not about DB2000.

The developers dont understand that many experienced players abandoned the community DB2000-EC2003 even then. Just because the community itself was a problem! They do not understand that the almost complete monopoly of DB2000 and EC2003 was a problem already in those years! They do not understand that dependence on both developers and novice players was a hell for many experienced players! And they had one single salvation - the database editor.

The database editor defined the quality of the game in Harpoon Classic and Naproon 3! The database editor made Harpoon a great game!



You imagine the situation as a conflict between the two sides. Developers against the noisy ordinary players. For you, and for modders-developers, a conflict requiring a solution consists only of this.

But you do not want to recognize the fact that there were two more sides to this conflict! Experienced players armed with a database editor and their friends.

You see the fact that ordinary players with the editor created problems for everyone! But you do not want to admit another fact that DB2000 developers, like average whining players, created problems for experienced players and their fans.
 
In this conflict there are not two sides, but four! Developers - novice players - experienced players - fans of experienced players!

You see only the fact associated with the conflict between developers and novice players. And this completely fits into what was happening on the forums in threads about DB2000. This completely fits the experience of developers who sat in these topics ... But that was not all! [:D]

You dont want to see the facts about the conflict between developers of DB2000 + ordinary players vs experienced players + their fans, who rejected DB2000 already then, many years ago. And they rejected this structure of our community. And for them, i repeat it, there is only one salvation - Database editor. [&o]

You see only certain facts. But you do not want to admit that there are conflicting facts! And when someone presents these facts to you, you begin to say that these are "not facts", that this is "only a private opinion," and then you simply start insulting this person. [:D]

Although these are the conflicting facts that describe reality. And their presence means that your description of reality is wrong. The Harpoon community has always been more than "DB2000 update ХХХ" topics. [8D]

Enough? [8|]

p.s.
DCS and Lock-on has OPEN DB! FSX has OPEN DB! You can easily edit planes and loadouts. [:-]