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RE: RTFM?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:44 am
by thewood1
ORIGINAL: nukkxx
I think that above all an internet forum should remain a convivial place where people ask and exchange views with pleasure. Not a place of endless arguing. Newbie shaming makes it difficult and I'm sure many people could be afraid to ask or would simply move or even worse, could stop playing. I don't think this is good for the game and the CMANO community. We want the community to develop and the game so sell as many copies as possible to happy players. This is the guaranty of a bright future for CMANO. This can't be achieved without a friendly forum. No one is obliged to answer questions, even not the devs. Especially when these are 'stupid'/newbie questions. Just let casual players answer. For example , to the question "how can I have images ?" even I can answer [:D] and it's my pleasure to answer when I can. Wood1 is much more qualified than I am so he should focus on sophisticated/complex questions(with a save, huh ! [:D]).
There are several ways to find the information on the internet. RTFM, google, or simply, ask in a forum. This is why god created forums. To allow rookies to quickly access information by asking grognards and without having to having to rtfm from cover to cover.
A) speak of the devil
B) You have not been reading what I posted. If you have, you aren't understanding it.
RE: RTFM?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:31 am
by thewood1
My favorite Clue charachter has spoken the truth...
tm.asp?m=4457508
"The manual and database are good to teach you mechanics and what controls to use, but to learn naval warfare goes beyond anything the devs could put in a book, or the database. One of the things I like about this game is that other than the buttons to push, there are very few pat answers to the challenges the game provides. If the player wants to be good at the game, they have to have the desire to figure things out for themselves. That means playing (and losing), outside research, experimenting within the game, and, as a last resort, asking for an answer."
This goes back to the layer discussion. The devs aren't responsible for explaining the details of real life physical phenomenon. They have provided several tools to explain how layers are used in the game. There are lots of resources outside the game and on the forum for more detail in what layers do and are. The debate, to me, is how much a new player is expected to do on their own before they are told to RTFM.
I have yet to see any new player come in and ask a level-headed question and get just a RTFM. They might be pointed to where they can find an answer. Where it gets harder is when they show a complete lack of initiative to help themselves even just a little. A player coming in and say, "Hey, I read the three page section on layers in the manual, but still am not sure how my sub can best avoid detection" is a lot better than coming and saying, "Hey, the devs don't provide enough documentation on what layers are because I don't understand them".
RE: RTFM?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:53 am
by BDukes
ORIGINAL: thewood1
You are mistaken that I consider them unworthy. Any question is not a bad question. Any new player should get help and get questions answered. Its players that continue to come back with the same basic questions or ignore the advice they are given, that I push back on. Again, its people that won't help themselves even a little.
This started with a couple idiots coming in and really sucking up the devs' time with very basic questions and complaints. Saying the the game was broken and needed to be fixed...and all because they wouldn't make any effort to learn the game. The devs and the community have gone to great lengths to document the basics, create video tutorials, build scenario tutorials, and answer questions. This thread in particular shows that some people think a big project to develop tutorials and a big manual will solve the problem. My point is that it will help the same people who are willing to do some work to learn the game. It won't help the same cadre of people that aren't willing to work a little to play the game.
These devs went through hell getting this game launched. I watched the development of the game and a number of people try to drag them down out of shear meanness. That carried over into the forums. I have refused to let people come in and devolve the forum again. I have stepped back a couple times and watched over a few months the forum get dominated by people who have no interest in learning the game. It ends up falling on the devs to sort it out. My reason for continuing to hammer at this is to keep the devs out of it as much as possible. Just look at the War Room section. While that guy is nowhere near as bad as others that have passed through, he is the kind of guy that sucks up the help people are willing to give. Note that a lot of his questions go unanswered. A sure sign of growing frustration with him.
I will help anyone I can. But there is one particular person on the main forum who drops a couple questions a day around things he could easily figure out and find himself. I have stayed out of it just to see what happens. I have noted that the usual crew of helpers is starting to get frustrated. It is incredibly predictable. You either let it fester and drag on or confront it right away.
FInally, it absolutely doesn't raise my blood pressure. I debate with people all day long as part of my job. Its easy for me. This shit is easy. I speak bluntly and have learned through years of experience that speaking bluntly and upfront to get to things quickly over letting things fester. I don't do it to be liked. I do it to help the devs and people who are willing to put some effort into learning the game.
As I kind of said earlier, if people don't like my posting style, feel free to step in and help. I also don't really care what people think, to be frank. If the devs want me to stop, I will.
Ah another person on forum you don't like and I see more paragraphs of stabbing them in back with smile on face[:)] Always frame like you help dev and other poster is bad egg. I wonder what forum would be like if you didn't do? Do you think it would not exist without your protection[:D] Have you made dev think that? If so it is poison to them. I start to get picture of who is behind some of their off post.
Being nice is good thing. Wood should not be telling what can post. He should not be threatening in private message. He cannot dictate how anybody should use or play game. They have busy life and just use game to have fun. I wonder how many user never buy a Warfarsim game again because of this. Shame[&:]
RE: RTFM?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:57 am
by thewood1
In that same thread, note the frustration being shown by three relatively calm forum regulars. That has been building for a couple months with that player. To connect to my point, this is a person that has had things explained to him over and over, as well as pointed to where he can find answers. This should been addressed when he first started posting. I stayed out of it to see where it would end up.
And guess what? Its ending up exactly where I thought it would. At this point, he can either do a little self-reflection on why people are getting frustrated and change his approach to understanding the game or it will head very far south. No amount of tutorials or manual pages are going to him past his perception of how the game should work or his perception of its flaws.
RE: RTFM?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:00 pm
by thewood1
I wondered how long before the forum stalker would show up. Noted an improvement of your error rate to under 20%. That is some solid improvement.
RE: RTFM?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:12 pm
by BDukes
ORIGINAL: thewood1
In that same thread, note the frustration being shown by three relatively calm forum regulars. That has been building for a couple months with that player. To connect to my point, this is a person that has had things explained to him over and over, as well as pointed to where he can find answers. This should been addressed when he first started posting. I stayed out of it to see where it would end up.
And guess what? Its ending up exactly where I thought it would. At this point, he can either do a little self-reflection on why people are getting frustrated and change his approach to understanding the game or it will head very far south. No amount of tutorials or manual pages are going to him past his perception of how the game should work or his perception of its flaws.
So you speak for them? Have you talk with them or you just see their frustration. Looks like you think this way and want others too. What if they do think your way? Notice they are not picking on user? Good men. Stop drink Wood poison kool-aid everybody.[:)]
This is support forum that wood say only approved questions can be ask. Who said only Wood approve questions allowed? Are questions not the point of support forum? Should user of all ability and smart be able to post without harassments or should user we think is not computer smart have to read three paragraph of insult or lecture on manual reading? If you this customer how would you think?
Kind support would help peoples learn more about game. Peoples will stay here and read forum more. I wonder if Wood think about maybe they don't read anything here because it not a good place for new user unless they have thick skin. Maybe doesn't think about at all.
Thank
RE: RTFM?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:17 pm
by BDukes
ORIGINAL: thewood1
I wondered how long before the forum stalker would show up. Noted an improvement of your error rate to under 20%. That is some solid improvement.
Again insults to non english speaker? I am sorry mine is not perfect but the world sometime work that way.
RE: RTFM?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:24 pm
by c3k
Okay, here's a question or two: Convergence Zones. What are the green bands? Is that where there is BETTER detection, and I cannot hear anything in the non-green zones? Or, are the green zones blanked, and the dark zones are where I can hear better? How much better/worse are the acoustics in the different zones? Why are there notches in the green zones? Why are the notches always lined up in succeeding rings, and why are there only one notch per ring?
I've looked...but don't see answers to that BASIC question. And, yes, that's a puzzle to me.
RE: RTFM?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:43 pm
by rmunie0613
ORIGINAL: c3k
Okay, here's a question or two: Convergence Zones. What are the green bands? Is that where there is BETTER detection, and I cannot hear anything in the non-green zones? Or, are the green zones blanked, and the dark zones are where I can hear better? How much better/worse are the acoustics in the different zones? Why are there notches in the green zones? Why are the notches always lined up in succeeding rings, and why are there only one notch per ring?
I've looked...but don't see answers to that BASIC question. And, yes, that's a puzzle to me.
The CZs are the green bands, so you cannot hear anything between them. (Not sure if you were giving just an example or actually asking lol).
RE: RTFM?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:48 pm
by rmunie0613
Interesting post.
Personally I like having all of them available. I almost never "play" tutorials myself, but open them to look at something specific often enough. I have never read the manual entirely, but, again, have opened it to look at specific things often enough that by now I may have done so.
I think one thing "thewood1" touches on- that much of the information is scattered, sometimes is an issue, but it is "able to be found"- he certainly finds it, and rather quickly often.
LUA has been my own greatest challenge, and the mix that the OP has put together of tutorial/manual for certain aspects of it are amazing.
I think to ask the devs- or anyone really- to keep the manual updated is too much. The game has developed so very far, and continues to do so, so that the manual- while important- becomes simply one of many tools.
RE: RTFM?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:51 pm
by ultradave
ORIGINAL: c3k
Okay, here's a question or two: Convergence Zones. What are the green bands? Is that where there is BETTER detection, and I cannot hear anything in the non-green zones? Or, are the green zones blanked, and the dark zones are where I can hear better? How much better/worse are the acoustics in the different zones? Why are there notches in the green zones? Why are the notches always lined up in succeeding rings, and why are there only one notch per ring?
I've looked...but don't see answers to that BASIC question. And, yes, that's a puzzle to me.
More than you ever wanted to know on CZs:
https://fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/e ... r_prop.htm
From a link in this thread:
tm.asp?m=3954575&mpage=1&key=Convergenc ... s�
More here:
tm.asp?m=3587267&mpage=1&key=Convergenc ... s�
And more here:
tm.asp?m=3516063&mpage=1&key=Convergenc ... s�
Happy reading!
RE: RTFM?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:07 pm
by stilesw
Ultradave,
Excellent information at this site. I've included it in the unofficial reference library.
As always, any forum member who would like access to this Dropbox information please PM me with your email address and I'll add you to the list.
Thanks for the input.
-Wayne Stiles
RE: RTFM?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:12 pm
by c3k
Thanks...
Not trying to derail the OP, but these links point out several issues:
1. Someone incorrectly posted that the green bands are dead zones. That points to the paucity of clear information to the player.
2. Posting links in a forum is EXACTLY what is wrong. The manual does not have enough information about these BASIC elements of gameplay and UI.
3. Still nothing about the notches.
In short, a detailed pdf and short, pointed, videos are necessary to break the barrier to new players.
(Please, let's ignore anything about Convergence Zones. I used that as an example of something which experienced players take for granted but newbs don't understand, either theoretically or how it affects gameplay.)
RE: RTFM?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:15 pm
by kevinkins
As mentioned above, so many learning resources are already available I don’t think anything really new is needed. The existing “written (the manual), hands-on (tutorial scenarios), visual (videos ala Baloogan)” could benefit by being brought together by someone who has very good publishing/organizational skills. Aka, a good “copy editor”. Some people just have a knack at making the complex understandable. They might be able to bring those three types of resources together with synergy where the sum is of greater value than the separate parts.
I never bought a “Complete Idiots Guide to …” book, but that publishing franchise is well known for its strong editing and organizational style. Unfortunately, those skills often require a professional who can put all the information into an easy to comprehend format. That said, Command would be a challenge for any editor or technical writer to tackle – even a pro. But it’s something to consider. The “Idiots” is just an example of a form of technical writing for the general public who want to come up to speed quickly on challenging topic. I believe that's the objective Apache has in mind.
Kevin
RE: RTFM?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:54 pm
by DWReese
Good question. What do the notches do? Why are they there? I've never seen anything on them.
Doug
RE: RTFM?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:06 pm
by thewood1
"Someone incorrectly posted that the green bands are dead zones. That points to the paucity of clear information to the player. "
And this points out a good reason to do your own research. Everyone has an opinion when you ask a question. The only way to figure it out is do your own research on the topic. Unless the devs step in. And they can't step into every discussion.
That is why posting links is exactly right. Why rehash something that has been discussed and explained before. Its faster and usually better.
RE: RTFM?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:30 pm
by rmunie0613
Just to be clear, what I pointed out was the opposite...did not point out they are dead zones, but that they were the Convergence zones.
OK carry on [:D]
RE: RTFM?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:40 pm
by Dimitris
ORIGINAL: DWReese
Good question. What do the notches do? Why are they there? I've never seen anything on them.
The notches are a map-graphics glitch. They do not affect simulated physics or gameplay.
At least one mystery solved.
RE: RTFM?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:46 pm
by DWReese
"At least one mystery solved."
Hahahaha
Thanks, D.
Doug
RE: RTFM?
Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:49 pm
by thewood1
Damn...I have been trying to maneuver my ships into that "notch" for five years.