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RE: 9PM Team Game
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:35 pm
by HardLuckYetAgain
ORIGINAL: Telemecus
ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
ORIGINAL: Telemecus
You have hit what for me is an interesting team dynamics question. At least by the rules of this game it is ultimately for the CoS to "allocate" - so that the CoS in this game will have to explain how they decide to do it.
In the other team games it has been all over the place (on the sides I have been on). And a big problem also is that flak is seen as having also, or even more so, a ground combat role. In other words used just to increase CV in ground combats. In the 8MP AAR we had a discussion of was this a game quirk, or did it reflect something historical. The conclusion it seems is this was historical.
So it seems to have come down to allocations between ground commanders and the air commander, and also a protocol on how the same SUs can be used by both in the same turn. The end result seems to be that the ground commanders use some flak during the turn. But most flak is left for assignment by the air commander at the end of the turn. However the air commander can also assign flak to ground combat HQs(not just air HQs) - and needs to take care they are not upsetting some critical other SU assignment there. But in effect they are filling in the gaps in flak coverage with the bulk of flak left for them at the end.
I am not entirely happy this has been well thought out. And players in this game may come up with better solutions.
When the Germans have many flak guns attached to a unit the Soviets can manipulate the supply status of said units and make the Germans easier to move. I will leave it to everyone else how to do it since it is not overly hard to do. If I ever play the Germans again I will never have more than 1 flak unit in a division. The Germans already kill enough tanks and other personnel without the addition of the Flak SU that could be better utilized elsewhere imo.
There was an interesting phenomenon that one player in the 8MP game noticed - and referred to it as using the DCA (by French acronyms for flak). But basically any unit that is isolated can use up all its ammo in firing flak on overflights. So if you have a unit isolated but still with a high CV (Moscow in mud in this case in 8MP) - just fly lots of bombing on it and recon missions over it and it will run out of ammo in no time. Strictly speaking of course the ground troops should remain with bullets, not see them turn into flak shells.
You are on the right path
RE: 9PM Team Game
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:15 am
by MarauderPL
Jeez, the exploits
RE: 9PM Team Game
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:04 am
by HardLuckYetAgain
ORIGINAL: MarauderPL
Jeez, the exploits
The worst exploit there is, "German hasty attacks" (PZ/Moto). This beast of an exploit is the root of the cause that grieves the game. Everyone keeps pointing to fuel, fuel, fuel. But the real killer is the hasty attacking which is cheap to do & cost next to nothing for a unit with very high movement points in movement points. Now this has been exacerbated by the decrease in Soviet Morale and experience. Thus the effectiveness of the hasty attack has substantially increased.
RE: 9PM Team Game
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:52 pm
by MarauderPL
The increasing MP cost for every failure has had some impact, but yes, I agree its a powerful tool (its not an exploit to be precise). The main balance problem right now (or ever) is that the game performs best ("historically") when its played as the devs designed it in the very beginning - like FBDs stay on the lanes they start on, no massive units transfer across the areas (like 2nd PZGruppe south, a lot of Soviets north etc.). As the players have come up with creative tactical, operational and started altering the strategy (the game seemingly doesnt give any strategic tools to the german player, only the soviet - the germans are supposed to follow the real life OKH plan) the game started to stretch and bend. There are hundreds of little mechanisms to tune as WITE is super complex, and it is virtually impossible to find the balance among the myriads of interactions.
I think changing the tactical tools will not fix the strategic challenges.
RE: 9PM Team Game
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:23 pm
by thedoctorking
On AA: I think the CoS has to make the call. Normally, I would want all air HQ's to have six AA regiments/battalions, mostly heavies. You can put the air HQ into cities that might suffer from strategic bombing too - Osinovets anyone? But if there is a shortage, I agree that front-line units have a legitimate call. I'd say the lights could go to the front-line guys, since they have significant anti-infantry effects and should also be able to hurt 1941-era tanks (PzII/III/38 and T-26/BT series).
RE: 9PM Team Game
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:22 pm
by Crackaces
ORIGINAL: thedoctorking
On AA: I think the CoS has to make the call. Normally, I would want all air HQ's to have six AA regiments/battalions, mostly heavies. You can put the air HQ into cities that might suffer from strategic bombing too - Osinovets anyone? But if there is a shortage, I agree that front-line units have a legitimate call. I'd say the lights could go to the front-line guys, since they have significant anti-infantry effects and should also be able to hurt 1941-era tanks (PzII/III/38 and T-26/BT series).
The Soviet 45mm ATG will hurt a PzII … The real key is getting the matchup given all the other devices present. It is why as a German commander I stuffed bicycle SU's into my tank divisions when I had a good idea I would be squaring off on ATG's/Artillery/ or Soviet Armor. MG bn make great SU's vs infantry particular infantry in terrain. The list goes on .. Now I am playing Soviets .. I have to figure out the Soviet match-up's <smile>
RE: 9PM Team Game
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:27 am
by thedoctorking
There's less of this for the Soviets at least early on because they can't attach SU to their divisions. In 1942-43, you have more corps and this can be a consideration. But I'd tend to spend my AP on artillery and mortar units for the most part. Enough AA to put six guys in each air HQ, and maybe one in each army to keep the flies away. The MG-Arty units are helpful. When you get them, the Engineer-sapper brigades can actually do some construction. And RR repair units to help you through the first winter.
RE: 9PM Team Game
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:53 pm
by Warcry1966
Sign me up to any side and role please
I've got the Steam version and I have played it
cheers
RE: 9PM Team Game
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:20 pm
by HardLuckYetAgain
ORIGINAL: Darojax
ORIGINAL: Otis1903
I would like to apply for Axis Ground Commander.
Looks like someone else snagged the position just ahead of you, the Axis Ground Commander team is full.
However, there is a high chance that we will need replacements, so if you do not mind I will put you down on the reserves list and contact you when a position frees up.
That being said, the position for Axis Air Marshal is still open.
Did you get an Air Marshall & did you see my question on the question of flak control?
RE: 9PM Team Game
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:22 pm
by Telemecus
ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
did you see my question on the question of flak control?
I thought I gave quite a long answer explaining it - but I guess that means I may not have understood your question? Or do you mean by the question not how the rules allow it, but how does the CoS actually want to allocate it?
RE: 9PM Team Game
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:23 pm
by Darojax
The Axis team is still looking for an Air Marshal
RE: 9PM Team Game
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:43 pm
by Warcry1966
Put me down as Axis Air Marshall
thanks
RE: 9PM Team Game
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:47 pm
by Warcry1966
Axis Air Marshal
What is the role of Axis Air Marshal?
RE: 9PM Team Game
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:02 pm
by HardLuckYetAgain
ORIGINAL: Telemecus
ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
did you see my question on the question of flak control?
I thought I gave quite a long answer explaining it - but I guess that means I may not have understood your question? Or do you mean by the question not how the rules allow it, but how does the CoS actually want to allocate it?
How the CoS plans the allocation of the Flak
RE: 9PM Team Game
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:02 pm
by HardLuckYetAgain
ORIGINAL: Darojax
The Axis team is still looking for an Air Marshal
Bleh, I give up trying for the position. Have a good game.
RE: 9PM Team Game
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:03 pm
by HardLuckYetAgain
ORIGINAL: Warcry1966
Axis Air Marshal
What is the role of Axis Air Marshal?
Better ask about the Flak allocation of the CoS too while you are at it
. Good luck on that endeavor
RE: 9PM Team Game
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:04 pm
by Telemecus
ORIGINAL: Warcry1966
Axis Air Marshal
What is the role of Axis Air Marshal?
A bit like the question on flak - depends on how the CoS allocates it, and how much you then on delegate to others.
In other games typically the air marshall takes a go at the start of the turn after the CoS and the end of the turn before the CoS. In those games the CoS allocated to the air chiefs all the air units, airbases, air leaders, national reserves and joint use of the flak with ground commanders by a protocol. At the start usually the air marshall changed the air settings of the air groups, potentially manually swapping some, sent some to reserve and moved the airbases. They would conduct air missions and/or tell ground commanders how/which are air units they could use in their gos. At the end the air marshall would conduct more air missions, call air groups out of reserve and finish the assignment of flak for the opposition turn.
In the final instance the CoS decides who does what, but is prohibited from doing air missions himself. But usually there is a discussion of how the role can be made and conducted and good ideas are always welcome! [:)]
RE: 9PM Team Game
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:07 pm
by Telemecus
ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
ORIGINAL: Warcry1966
Axis Air Marshal
What is the role of Axis Air Marshal?
Better ask about the Flak allocation of the CoS too while you are at it
. Good luck on that endeavor
Well I think any CoS is looking for advice and suggestions. As it is not in the rules it is not set in stone, so could change during the game and be shaped by others. How would you suggest doing it?
RE: 9PM Team Game
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:17 pm
by HardLuckYetAgain
ORIGINAL: Telemecus
ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
ORIGINAL: Warcry1966
What is the role of Axis Air Marshal?
Better ask about the Flak allocation of the CoS too while you are at it
. Good luck on that endeavor
Well I think any CoS is looking for advice and suggestions. As it is not in the rules it is not set in stone, so could change during the game and be shaped by others. How would you suggest doing it?
I was putting into action in my last game when I was playing Germany of the overlapping zones of fire by putting AA on Airbase HQ's. I briefly hit on this in my AAR but did not go into any detail. The figthers for Germany, as I have said, are so important that the Germans MUST use that AA to protect any base that have those fighters on it. If you start allocating AA out wholesale to ground units your fighters could suffer needlessly from mass Soviet bombings and/or CAP.
RE: 9PM Team Game
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:20 pm
by Telemecus
ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
ORIGINAL: Telemecus
ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Better ask about the Flak allocation of the CoS too while you are at it
. Good luck on that endeavor
Well I think any CoS is looking for advice and suggestions. As it is not in the rules it is not set in stone, so could change during the game and be shaped by others. How would you suggest doing it?
I was putting into action in my last game when I was playing Germany of the overlapping zones of fire by putting AA on Airbase HQ's. I briefly hit on this in my AAR but did not go into any detail. The figthers for Germany, as I have said, are so important that the Germans MUST use that AA to protect any base that have those fighters on it. If you start allocating AA out wholesale to ground units your fighters could suffer needlessly from mass Soviet bombings and/or CAP.
Some ideas might be the CoS only allocates a small amount of the flak for use by ground commanders. Or allows, and the air marshall does, the assignment of as much flak as is needed to air HQs at the first go of the air marshall before ground commanders take their gos?