Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

make Divs block partisan entry on the map with a larger area. I decided to put that in the game for the 1st update.

It will be interesting to give this a try and see how it works out. I'm having fairly good success guarding the Main Supply Route (MSR) with small corps as my panzers head for the Baku oil fields. It will be a welcome ability to use divisions for this task instead. It will also make the divisions much more useful.

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith
How the fact it is broken eluded the beta-testers simply suggests me that testers were more focused on just playing the game than testing out things.

That is quite a derisive attack on the beta testers!

On the contrary we spent many hours actually play testing and testing things out, play the game was a side effect.

I really find some of your posts offensive, you are making broad attacks with no facts.

We all spent many many hours testing out the game, including the partisan aspect and I don't think they are broken.

I'm just working my way through the game playing with the Historical settings. I'm getting ten or more Partisan hits per turn. I don't enjoy chasing around the map catching partisans!

ORIGINAL: Toby42

I'm just working my way through the game playing with the Historical settings. I'm getting ten or more Partisan hits per turn. I don't enjoy chasing around the map catching partisans!

By partisan hits do you mean railroad damage or actual partisan units you have to react to and destroy? Maybe I'm not far enough in the game but I've only actually seen one partisan unit. It was a very weak partisan unit which was easy to destroy. I do get up to five damaged railroads on some turns (mostly in France where I'm not being proactive in guarding the rail lines since its not necessary right now). There is nothing for the player to do about the damaged rail lines except wait for them to be automatically repaired. So I've only seen one partisan unit and to be fair it didn't run. Just sat still until a security division easily destroyed it.

If you really don't like partisan (I don't), you can edit them out of the game. Go to Editor and to the Country tab, in each country there is a Partisans % and check, make both 0 for every country and then they will be gone, or you can lower it for less partisan activity in a given county.

ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo

If you really don't like partisan (I don't), you can edit them out of the game. Go to Editor and to the Country tab, in each country there is a Partisans % and check, make both 0 for every country and then they will be gone, or you can lower it for less partisan activity in a given county.

I'm still trying out all the game concepts so I'm keeping an open mind. So far partisans seem okay to me. But still the above editor information you posted is very useful / helpful. It will basically solve the partisan issue for players that decide they don't like them.

If you really don't like partisan (I don't), you can edit them out of the game. Go to Editor and to the Country tab, in each country there is a Partisans % and check, make both 0 for every country and then they will be gone, or you can lower it for less partisan activity in a given county.

That works in SP, but not in MP.

I enjoy the partisan game, it adds difficulty to the game and saps front line strength making it harder to clear the map early. It also forces you to peruse your rear areas from time to time helping me miss an oversight or ten in my defenses sometimes. That said I would not be opposed to partisans reducing supply levels instead of breaking the rail completely in one hit.

So for example have each hit reduce the rail supply level by 2 and then allow rails to repair one point a turn. So a 9 becomes a 7 and every rail line from that break towards the front line can not go above 7 until the line is repaired. So to completely break a line would require 5 hits in a row (no repairs allowed on a line if it gets hit that turn).

Jim

ORIGINAL: MOS96B2P

ORIGINAL: Toby42

I'm just working my way through the game playing with the Historical settings. I'm getting ten or more Partisan hits per turn. I don't enjoy chasing around the map catching partisans!

By partisan hits do you mean railroad damage or actual partisan units you have to react to and destroy? Maybe I'm not far enough in the game but I've only actually seen one partisan unit. It was a very weak partisan unit which was easy to destroy. I do get up to five damaged railroads on some turns (mostly in France where I'm not being proactive in guarding the rail lines since its not necessary right now). There is nothing for the player to do about the damaged rail lines except wait for them to be automatically repaired. So I've only seen one partisan unit and to be fair it didn't run. Just sat still until a security division easily destroyed it.

Actual units!

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Interestingly enough WarPlan had no unit partisan units until beta test. The beta testers asked for it so it was implemented.

I wasn't a beta tester, wanted to be, but applied a little late. That said, partisans are quite broken in this game. I say that with 30 years experience designing and testing these types of war games. Add to that my 35 years experience studying WW2 (400+ books read and extensive research).

First of all the fact that a partisan unit (ON THE MAP) in a corps level game shows up in the first week of July 41 only < 1 month after the Germans attacked is fantasy. Partisan units where not that well organized in 41/42and a great deal of the population, especially Ukraine and Baltic States, saw the German initially as liberators. I could write a short novel on the effectiveness of partisans between 41-45 on the eastern front, but I'll sum it up that in Warplan partisans in general are way out of proportion to their historical contribution.

Also, the below rule/feature of the game is broken for sure. I've had numerous partisan activities occur one hex away from corps (non-garrisoned) type units.

Any unit protects vs partisans in their own hex. Corps and Armies protect vs partisans in their hex and the surrounding 6 hexes.

I really hope partisans are fixed in the near term and later overhauled to partisan zones as I spoke about in an earlier comments. I'm willing to help here if needed.

The enjoyment of the game for me as the axis has taken a huge dip with this issue of partisans. I think sometimes game designers fall into the trap of listening to a minority of people that have an unrealistic view of the factor of partisans in WW2. Sure maybe for some it's a patriotic fascination, but don't let partisans be the feature that distorts the historical facts and enjoyment of the game. Also, keep in mind that the victors in wars control the narrative of facts when they write history. This is never more clear than with Stalin during and after WW2. So much of what you read about Soviets partisans in WW2 should be offset with this fact in mind. Were partisan activities very annoying to the Germans on the eastern front, for sure. Was it a game changer or a significant factor for them, no. They had much bigger issues that caused their demise in WW2.

ORIGINAL: Toby42

ORIGINAL: MOS96B2P

ORIGINAL: Toby42

I'm just working my way through the game playing with the Historical settings. I'm getting ten or more Partisan hits per turn. I don't enjoy chasing around the map catching partisans!

By partisan hits do you mean railroad damage or actual partisan units you have to react to and destroy? Maybe I'm not far enough in the game but I've only actually seen one partisan unit. It was a very weak partisan unit which was easy to destroy. I do get up to five damaged railroads on some turns (mostly in France where I'm not being proactive in guarding the rail lines since its not necessary right now). There is nothing for the player to do about the damaged rail lines except wait for them to be automatically repaired. So I've only seen one partisan unit and to be fair it didn't run. Just sat still until a security division easily destroyed it.

Actual units!

Wow..... 10 partisan units per turn on historical settings does seem like a lot. Very different from my experience so far on historical settings. I'll have to continue on and see what develops...... 5th Panzer Army is closing on Rostov en-route to the Baku oil fields........ [:)]

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

I wasn't a beta tester, wanted to be, but applied a little late. That said, partisans are quite broken in this game. I say that with 30 years experience designing and testing these types of war games. Add to that my 35 years experience studying WWII (400+ books read and extensive research).

First of all the fact that a partisan unit (ON THE MAP) in a corps level game shows up in the first week of July 41 only < 1 month after the Germans attacked is fantasy. Partisan units where not that well organized in 41/42and a great deal of the population, especially Ukraine and Baltic States, saw the German initially as liberators. I could write a short novel on the effectiveness of partisans between 41-45 on the eastern front, but I'll sum it up that in Warplan partisans in general are way out of proportion to their historical contribution.

Agreed.

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Sure maybe for some it's a patriotic fascination, but don't let partisans be the feature that distorts the historical facts and enjoyment of the game. Also, keep in mind that the victors in wars control the narrative of facts when they write history. This is never more clear than with Stalin during and after WW2. So much of what you read about Soviets partisans in WW2 should be offset with this fact in mind. Were partisan activities very annoying to the Germans on the eastern front, for sure. Was it a game changer or a significant factor for them, no. They had much bigger issues that caused their demise in WW2.

I have to disagree with this at least with what I have found out. Mainly with this quote,

"The Soviet partisan activities was a strategic factor in the defeat of the German forces on the Soviet-German front. During the summer and autumn of 1942, when partisan warfare did not reach its highest peak, the German Army devoted about 10 percent of its overall strength in fighting partisans, including 15 regular and security divisions and 144 security and police battalions. At the same time, the total strength of German and Italian forces in North Africa was 12 divisions. The partisans made significant contributions to the war effort by interrupting German plans to exploit Soviet territories economically. German forces obtained only one-seventh of what they looted from other European countries. While about $1 billion worth of food and other products were expropriated from Soviet territories by the Germans, more than $26 billion worth of goods and services were extracted from other European countries."

As I said before in my earlier post, a much better way imho would be just to have production that has Partisan and anti-Partisan points created. Some ratio between the two determines what happens on the map. This solves the issue with ZOC, chasing units down, etc.

Don't want partisans causing issues, crank up anti-partisan points. Want to wreck havoc on rail line, do the opposite.

I am not sure where these numbers were taken from, I've read way the opposite through various books and essays about how insignificant in the grand scope was the partisan contribution to the war.

I've elaborated it earlier on already anyhow on the topic.

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Sure maybe for some it's a patriotic fascination, but don't let partisans be the feature that distorts the historical facts and enjoyment of the game. Also, keep in mind that the victors in wars control the narrative of facts when they write history. This is never more clear than with Stalin during and after WW2. So much of what you read about Soviets partisans in WW2 should be offset with this fact in mind. Were partisan activities very annoying to the Germans on the eastern front, for sure. Was it a game changer or a significant factor for them, no. They had much bigger issues that caused their demise in WW2.

I have to disagree with this at least with what I have found out. Mainly with this quote,

"The Soviet partisan activities was a strategic factor in the defeat of the German forces on the Soviet-German front. During the summer and autumn of 1942, when partisan warfare did not reach its highest peak, the German Army devoted about 10 percent of its overall strength in fighting partisans, including 15 regular and security divisions and 144 security and police battalions. At the same time, the total strength of German and Italian forces in North Africa was 12 divisions. The partisans made significant contributions to the war effort by interrupting German plans to exploit Soviet territories economically. German forces obtained only one-seventh of what they looted from other European countries. While about $1 billion worth of food and other products were expropriated from Soviet territories by the Germans, more than $26 billion worth of goods and services were extracted from other European countries."

As I said before in my earlier post, a much better way imho would be just to have production that has Partisan and anti-Partisan points created. Some ratio between the two determines what happens on the map. This solves the issue with ZOC, chasing units down, etc.

Don't want partisans causing issues, crank up anti-partisan points. Want to wreck havoc on rail line, do the opposite.

You are falling into the propaganda trap as many do. Those number can be disputed, but even if you believe them. Think about the strength of those units and whether they would be trying to rest from front line combat even if not on partisan control duties. I not discounting that the Axis fighting partisan was not a strain on their already depleting logistics and manpower, but in Warplan it is out of all proportion to their historical significance. As the developer has stated, this is a corps level game. Using partisan zones in which the Axis would have to allocate manpower/resources would sever the game much better in a historical context and easy of play.

Actually I don't want to edit the game. As I play other people I think it's important that there is 'one' official scenario for each start date that PBEM players can challenge each other with.

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Using partisan zones in which the Axis would have to allocate manpower/resources would sever the game much better in a historical context and easy of play.

I sort of like this solution. But I'd still allow for a RARE partisan on the map provided the locations made more sense.

Also, I'm not clear on what is happening with regards to how my units affect where the partisans hit. I'm certain they've hit adjacent to my units

For me the issue (if there is one) is this:

Partisans were a strategic consideration for everyone and they definitely impacted the war. As has been pointed out, a lost of German effort was spent in many ways (security troops, frontline troops, ugly SS stuff, and the list goes on forever).

Partisans are a complex subject. It is near impossible to address such a complex and varied military element in a game such as this (which is abstract to begin with). Even Churchill had to consider it...how would it play into any potential Balkan campaign? Who to support in Yugoslavia? Do we send them guns? Is it enough? and so on and so forth.

Then, on top all that you'd have to consider French Partisans, Russian Partisans, and Yugoslavian(absurdly complex situation) Partisans are all totally different and operated in totally different ways. So unless we implement something super complex in response, we have to accept the variation at the edges.

So yeah, it's complex beyond the scope of the game obviously and that's okay, we just want something that gives a nod to the very real threat of partisans without disrupting gameplay too much. So here is my opinion based on my 3 games so far.

-right now, there is too much whack a mole with these units. I'm fine with partisan units on the map but not so many. Nobody likes whack a mole. If I hit one of these things with a division let alone a corps, they should be toast. But right now, they retreat and they retreat and they just keep going. Fine. But it's not fun.

-I like the Partisans blowing up railroads but it needs to be tied to a garrison value or something I can abstractly adjust.

-I like the occasional Partisan unit showing up. But the locations right now are odd. And there's just slightly too many.

As far as I know, and Michael can correct me as needed , Yugoslavia was the only country that actually real formations that would make sense at this scale. By late '44 they had 500,000 troops/partisans active.

Of course in Russia, there were huge areas behind the front lines that we totally controlled by partisans as well. Obviously areas that the Germans did not care about.

"By the end of 1943, partisans controlled more than 100 thousand square km. of Belarus, which was about 60 percent of the republic's territory. The partisans controlled more than 20 regional centers and thousands of villages. By the time of the return of the Soviet Army, most of the Belorussian SSR was in the hands partisan groups and the actual size of republic controlled by the Germans was small."

How to reflect this in the scale of this game is a different story.

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

I am not sure where these numbers were taken from, I've read way the opposite through various books and essays about how insignificant in the grand scope was the partisan contribution to the war.

I've elaborated it earlier on already anyhow on the topic.

Here is my source if you are interested.

Leonid D. Grenkevich. The Soviet Partisan Movement, 1941-1944: A Critical Historiographical Analysis.Routledge. 2013. p.324

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: Michael T

IIRC partisans can't operate within 6 hexes of a Corp. So build a few small corp and deploy as required.

In my game Poland is currently stuffed with German units, but partisans are hitting rails very close to the units (I want to say I've seen adjacent attacks, but not sure. Within 2 hexes for sure though), so if you're right about how the rule should work, it's not working as intended.

Jim

I'll take a look at this. They shouldn't be.