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RE: 1.00.05d1 testing thread, hold on to your hats!
Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:31 pm
by MorningDew
A possibly easier approach that gets close - perhaps a port must be above a certain size to be allowed to unload a unit in an adjacent hex?
RE: 1.00.05d1 testing thread, hold on to your hats!
Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:22 pm
by AlvaroSousa
I can work with that. It does run into other issues though.
This is what would happen.
Why do I have to wait at a port 3 turns to unload all my troops? The enemy just wiped out my transport fleet because I had to wait!!
So imagine you invade a large port and I saw the limit is 2 a turn and you have 4 units on the ships. Your enemy pounds the fleet with 2 bombers each turn twice a turn. You will be subject to 4 air attacks before unloading the 2nd set.
I can see the players posting this.
A lot of talk was going on about British production. So I looked at my older notes. Over time I did increase the Germans so they could have enough to build for a 1941 Barbarossa + a little extra for game options. But I never increased the UK. So I might give them a little more production.
RE: 1.00.05d1 testing thread, hold on to your hats!
Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:41 pm
by Michael T
I would rather see Germany reduced than UK increased.
RE: 1.00.05d1 testing thread, hold on to your hats!
Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:06 pm
by MorningDew
ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa
This is what would happen.
Why do I have to wait at a port 3 turns to unload all my troops? The enemy just wiped out my transport fleet because I had to wait!!
Players will learn the rules, but no doubt there will be questions. There were questions about why people couldn't invade until people learned the rules. One way to avoid this is feedback on the unit where the "unload" icon would be. Could be an icon with a tooltip explaining why.
I am trying to provide some ideas on how to use the port size to limit what can unload without major code changes.
One example could be:
Port size 1-2, can only unload in the port itself, so the port has to be empty to allow units to disembark.
Port size 3-7, can only unload in port and adjacent hex, so opens up more, but not unlimited.
Port size 8-9, no limit, will unload into any upon, in-supply, owned hex.
RE: 1.00.05d1 testing thread, hold on to your hats!
Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:35 pm
by Michael T
As for German production.
Historically German production was not so great in the period 39-41. It was only after the failure of Barbarossa and the US entry that German production was really ramped up.
Hitler was mindful of keeping the population happy in the early days.
So less German production early would help curb all this aggression in the period post France pre Russia.
Germany did little in this period. They were building up for Barbarossa. If Germany wants to risk and perhaps squander it's production prior to the big guys coming after them in 42 onwards then so be it. Don't let them have it both ways.
So I would say reduce German production in the early war period then ramp it up post 42. That was the historical reality.
RE: 1.00.05d1 testing thread, hold on to your hats!
Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:10 pm
by Flaviusx
Everything you ever wanted to know about the Nazi war economy but were afraid to ask:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008DR6YXO/re ... TF8&btkr=1
RE: 1.00.05d1 testing thread, hold on to your hats!
Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:36 pm
by James Taylor
Al, a player is not going to bring in more units than the port can unload in one turn, so they are not going to be sitting there waiting to get bombed.
They will have to run the gauntlet of intercepts, both air and naval.
Simple issue here is port size. Port size dictates how much cargo can be unloaded in one turn(two weeks). So what was it? Anyone?
Logic dictates that a port size one unloads a division per turn, therefore a 9 size port can unload 3 corps per turn.
RE: 1.00.05d1 testing thread, hold on to your hats!
Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:41 am
by AlvaroSousa
I like the idea but I will try a simple way so people don't have to remember how many units they debarked.
Side note the Allies dumped 500k men on D-day rather quickly. I know that within a week they had 350k in the area with no port.
RE: 1.00.05d1 testing thread, hold on to your hats!
Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:59 am
by PanzerMike
ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa
I like the idea but I will try a simple way so people don't have to remember how many units they debarked.
Side note the Allies dumped 500k men on D-day rather quickly. I know that within a week they had 350k in the area with no port.
True. The Allies found out that disembarking cargo and men on the secured beaches proved to be easier than thought. Even with the Mulberry harbors not yet operational and Cherbourg in enemy hands/demolished, they succeeded marvelously. They did however have a
large number of specialized vessels built for this of course. So if players want to replicate that, build lots of them.
For an invasion in a highly contested area (like France) to succeed, you need to get more troops ashore than the enemy can counter with their interior lines. That is why the Allies destroyed infrastructure and did lots of interdiction; they effectively isolated Normandy from the rest of France. If a player does not build lots of transport and landing vessels and only succeeds in taking a minor harbor, the enemy should be able to rush in enough troops to the area and eventually throw them back in the see. Half assed invasions in hot areas should be a BAD idea.
RE: 1.00.05d1 testing thread, hold on to your hats!
Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:11 am
by Franciscus
ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa
I like the idea but I will try a simple way so people don't have to remember how many units they debarked.
Side note the Allies dumped 500k men on D-day rather quickly. I know that within a week they had 350k in the area with no port.
Yes, with massive logistics, full air and naval superiority, hundreds of landing crafts.
And curiously (:)) they did not use a single France port on D-Day...
RE: 1.00.05d1 testing thread, hold on to your hats!
Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:42 am
by AlvaroSousa
They did not that is correct.
RE: 1.00.05d1 testing thread, hold on to your hats!
Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:13 am
by LiquidSky
And the Normandy invasion moved at night
RE: 1.00.05d1 testing thread, hold on to your hats!
Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:39 pm
by AlvaroSousa
Invaded during the day though. Since interception is where the fleet ends up day time interception of the force is reasonable.
RE: 1.00.05d1 testing thread, hold on to your hats!
Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:43 pm
by PanzerMike
Agreed.
Will the next beta version contain the new invasion mechanics (next to some bug fixes I guess)? I will postpone my next game until then. Except for the negative number of merchants, I have found no new bugs so far.
RE: 1.00.05d1 testing thread, hold on to your hats!
Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:58 pm
by James Taylor
OK, so it is established that a large build up of troops requires a large number of landing craft when no port is available. That is what brings them across the beaches.
Now if there is a desire to limit the German ability to conduct Sealion, then you have to reduce the amount of landing craft available which is historically correct.
So what does it take to build landing craft? Shipyards! Does that give you some ideas?
RE: 1.00.05d1 testing thread, hold on to your hats!
Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:45 pm
by PanzerMike
Do not have the game before me right now, but the Germans have limited shipyard capacity as it is, don't they? Bismarck and a U boat are in the queue IIRC. How many landing ships and transports can they build if they forego any more subs, merchants and escorts for a summer 1940 sea lion?
RE: 1.00.05d1 testing thread, hold on to your hats!
Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:46 pm
by James Taylor
I think the key thing here is that a shipyard takes 400 days to construct. It takes 5 of them to build 10 landing craft(90 days) that can transport a division.
IIRC Germany starts with 40 LC, that is too much in my understanding of what was historically available Sept. 1, 1939, maybe 10 is a better representation.
So Germany has the capability to put a division on an enemy coastline.
If Germany becomes somehow enlightened that it is going to build an amphibious capability for an eventual Sealion and they don't have the available shipyards, then we are talking 490 days before they can realize that capacity. That's over a year, well past the original Sealion timeline.
You can't disband naval units in the build Q, so how many shipyards are available at start is the limiting factor(+ whatever is freed up upon build Q launch). All Al has to do is make it so with the beginning shipyard number, then it is up to the Axis player to decide what his strategic focus is going to be.
RE: 1.00.05d1 testing thread, hold on to your hats!
Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:07 pm
by Franciscus
ORIGINAL: James Taylor
I think the key thing here is that a shipyard takes 400 days to construct. It takes 5 of them to build 10 landing craft(90 days) that can transport a division.
IIRC Germany starts with 40 LC, that is too much in my understanding of what was historically available Sept. 1, 1939, maybe 10 is a better representation.
So Germany has the capability to put a division on an enemy coastline.
If Germany becomes somehow enlightened that it is going to build an amphibious capability for an eventual Sealion and they don't have the available shipyards, then we are talking 490 days before they can realize that capacity. That's over a year, well past the original Sealion timeline.
You can't disband naval units in the build Q, so how many shipyards are available at start is the limiting factor(+ whatever is freed up upon build Q launch). All Al has to do is make it so with the beginning shipyard number, then it is up to the Axis player to decide what his strategic focus is going to be.
Good reasoning
RE: 1.00.05d1 testing thread, hold on to your hats!
Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:00 pm
by AlvaroSousa
They start with 10 landing craft.
RE: 1.00.05d1 testing thread, hold on to your hats!
Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:20 pm
by Michael T
What about Armor?
From my reading to unload Armor at a beach required special transports. Not your regular landing craft for Infantry. I do not believe the Germans had any capacity to unload armor at a beach. They needed a port. So to with the Allies until much later.
And I am talking Corp sized units here. Not the odd battalion.
So by my thinking I would suggest Armour Corp units should not be able to land at a beach period. And allow them only to disembark at a port. For both the Allies and the Germans. Once you get to 1943 I would allow Armor to land at a beach but it would cost 2 x Landing Craft per factor.
That would go a long way to limit the craziness we see with Armored Corp doing Amphib landings in the early war period.