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the PO can really hammer you if you make a wrong step?

Yes! As you know, historically the Germans drove on three objectives simultaneously. Often an experienced player will concentrate on two or even one area in order to gain what seems like better than historical results. However, note that all [and I mean ALL, that I have seen] of those AAR's end early in favor of the Soviets.

During play-testing we tried concentrating on the big three [Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad] one at a time. All Fails. There just aren't enough Axis troops to hold the line while being strong enough locally, as it was historically.

I should say that while it is definitely possible to take one of the three before the first winter, it is quite difficult to hold it.

My favorite strategy is to go at Leningrad initially while keeping a fair effort in the center and south. It's a juggling act but if you stay focused you should be able to get Leningrad. This allows you to actually shorten the front for the winter and spend it R&R'ing for a combined AGN/AGC attack on Moscow in spring 1942. Then into the south in 1943.

P.S. I believe the above strategy is very viable because, in my opinion, Hitler bungled the campaign by stopping/starting AGN and AGC several times, while wastefully moving units willy-nilly back and forth between the two AG's to no effect. Of course, the rookie D21 / RGW player may make the same mistakes.

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

the PO can really hammer you if you make a wrong step?

Yes! As you know, historically the Germans drove on three objectives simultaneously. Often an experienced player will concentrate on two or even one area in order to gain what seems like better than historical results. However, note that all [and I mean ALL, that I have seen] of those AAR's end early in favor of the Soviets.

During play-testing we tried concentrating on the big three [Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad] one at a time. All Fails. There just aren't enough Axis troops to hold the line while being strong enough locally, as it was historically.

I should say that while it is definitely possible to take one of the three before the first winter, it is quite difficult to hold it.

My favorite strategy is to go at Leningrad initially while keeping a fair effort in the center and south. It's a juggling act but if you stay focused you should be able to get Leningrad. This allows you to actually shorten the front for the winter and spend it R&R'ing for a combined AGN/AGC attack on Moscow in spring 1942. Then into the south in 1943.

P.S. I believe the above strategy is very viable because, in my opinion, Hitler bungled the campaign by stopping/starting AGN and AGC several times, while wastefully moving units willy-nilly back and forth between the two AG's to no effect. Of course, the rookie D21 / RGW player may make the same mistakes.

Is this playing with or without the + handicap for the PO which as I recall is like a permanent shock bonus?

As the scenario designer, I play with +2 and Strong.

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

As the scenario designer, I play with +2 and Strong.

OK. I've found the +2 rating somewhat unsatisfactory in other scenarios. There was one scenario in particular where the PO was incredibly strong as a result but by concentrating sector by sector I was able to wipe out whole sections of the OOB, and the PO was simply unable to understand that it needed to replace them. As such half the map was empty by the end of the scenario.

Admittedly this was a long time ago- I haven't played the PO much since. Perhaps in this setting the PO would cope better.

by concentrating sector by sector I was able to wipe out whole sections of the OOB,

The PO has to be set to cover everything all the time. This is not easy for us to do, but similar to reality we can surround and destroy an AG and it will take a Human or PO a couple turns to rebuild a line. D21 and RGW may have a large map, but the Soviet side has 400+ formations, so a lot to work with. The Axis side is quite different. Even a human doesn't have enough units to cover everything.

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

The PO has to be set to cover everything all the time. This is not easy for us to do, but similar to reality we can surround and destroy an AG and it will take a Human or PO a couple turns to rebuild a line. D21 and RGW may have a large map, but the Soviet side has 400+ formations, so a lot to work with. The Axis side is quite different. Even a human doesn't have enough units to cover everything.

Alright I may give it a go. I typically disdain the PO so I'll let you know how I get on- although I shouldn't really take something like this on as my playing time is so limited.

Even a human doesn't have enough units to cover everything.

Well, that's what panzer divisions are for. Manstein taught me that much.

Yeah, the first turn can take 2 hours. After that each turn takes a little less until you can get it down to about 20-30 minutes/turn. When I play it I try to get one turn a day otherwise I lose continuity. Then once or twice a month I get to go on a bender and do maybe 20 turns in one long sitting.

that's what panzer divisions are for

Trick to this is to get them out of the line [;)]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Yeah, the first turn can take 2 hours. After that each turn takes a little less until you can get it down to about 20-30 minutes/turn. When I play it I try to get one turn a day otherwise I lose continuity. Then once or twice a month I get to go on a bender and do maybe 20 turns in one long sitting.

that's what panzer divisions are for

Trick to this is to get them out of the line [;)]

Getting along with this now, with the +2 bonus for the AI as suggested.

I made only a vague effort to get a newer version and ended up playing the version that comes with the game, which I think is 4.2? I see someone else playing 4.6... is there anything really seriously wrong which was fixed in the interim, or is it only marginal improvements?

There used to be a thread somewhere, but it doesn't seem to be in the first 8 pages of threads so I gave up looking.

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

There used to be a thread somewhere, but it doesn't seem to be in the first 8 pages of threads so I gave up looking.

I guess this is my problem.... found what I think is the relevant thread here. It took forever but I also found lots of other posts from you which are illuminating (and make me appreciate your patience dealing with dumb players like me)

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4471552

House Rules I've been breaking:
- "German units must remain with their respective Army Group assignment (based on the counter color) in the historical region through March 31st 1942": I sent one 11th Army division to AGC but it hasn't done any fighting so I'll send it back. I'm anyway in the process of shifting the AG boundary AGC/AGS somewhat as AGC was pulled too far south after I crossed the Dnieper, I'll make sure it doesn't go too far north in turn
- "After Turn 4 Security units and MP units may only be used to convert rear enemy hexes, mop up rear echelon surrounded enemy units, preform garrison duties in any occupied rear echelon hex. Another-wards they cannot advance into enemy territory with the purpose of converting forward hexes or encircling enemy units": Occasionally these guys advance but mostly they mop up. I'll make sure they don't advance any more

The release notes actually sound more like incremental improvements and fixing bugs in events which haven't been triggered yet anyway. However the headline of the thread says that the PO has been made more challenging.

If true, this is what I sort of feared- the +2 handicap for the AI certainly makes Soviet units a lot more powerful, but it actually doesn't matter that much in Barbarossa because the vast majority of fighting is against units which have already been cut off and left to starve for several turns. Most Soviet units also end up in 1 hex pockets so you only need to trigger an RFC and the unit is gone- handicap or no handicap. I only feel sorry for my poor Romanians who've lost about 40% of their strength by turn 18.

I guess I'm looking for an experienced opinion, from someone who knows the scenario well: how much tougher is it to beat the PO in 4.6 than 4.2- and correspondingly how smug should I feel if I'm beating the PO in 4.2? So far the PO seems too passive to me, as I've been able to trap some very powerful Soviet units with very weak forces of my own, and the PO has just settled down to die in place rather than trying to cut its way out.

Anyway, the campaign isn't over yet, I'll keep going for now and see how I get on.

House Rules I've been breaking

Well, somewhere around v2.something Rick took over further development of D21. That was in maybe 2014? I didn't keep up with progress. So I can't speak to anything from those points on. But I will blab on about this stuff:

My original idea in 2009 was to create D21 as a scenario that would allow the player to create their own rules, within a reasonable solid TOAW framework. The reason was that there are some widely differing opinions as to how the scenario should be designed, and I didn't want to be the judge as to who was right or wrong just because we disagreed.

Therefore, the rules you mention concerning Unit Colors and Security/MP units were not in the original design. I would suggest that you treat with them and any other 'rules' as you, the player, like. My personal opinion - the Germans assigned units by desire not color, and security units were often used in the front line. A lot. So I wouldn't play with either of those rules mentioned in the previous post. Others may love them. [;)]

Security units and MP units may only be used to convert rear enemy hexes ... Occasionally these guys advance but mostly they mop up. I'll make sure they don't advance any more

Original scenario versions had these units withdraw at reasonable intervals as the scenario progressed. That way the player didn't have to worry about how to play them [use them as you wish while you have them, because as was historically, some will eventually be assigned to rear areas only and therefore not be available or they are broken up to reinforce other units].

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Original scenario versions had these units withdraw at reasonable intervals as the scenario progressed.

I've noticed that. I nearly had two Soviet rifle divisions running loose in Estonia but I noticed just in time that the security troops containing them were due to withdraw in 2 turns...

Thanks for your help!

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

My personal opinion - the Germans assigned units by desire not color,

I assumed the point of this house rule was that the supply net in the Soviet Union wouldn't support major forces being transferred between sectors. On the other hand, Germany's initial plan for Barbarossa called for the panzergruppes to converge on Moscow after securing Leningrad and Kharkov