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4th Attack by ground forces and yet another fighter loss. You can see the pattern and if I continue to attack in the area I could technically lose a great deal more fighters not engaging a single Soviet aircraft.

All losses are OPS losses.

Here is the fighters lost after the 4th battle. As you can see I have lost 13 fighters just flying around not engaging a single thing. I would lose a great deal more if I continue to attack in the Area of an AS and engage nothing. I am moving on to the Soviet side and run an AS by the Soviets to see the losses.

So far the privilege of flying AS is pretty steep at 14% not engaging a thing out of ~100 aircraft. This is from German bases too.

I put a group of hodge podge soviet fighters and just flew AS by the Soviets to see if the Germans intercepted. There was one interception which resulted in a total of 10 German a2a losses and 2 ops in the battle. I further lose another 6 ops losses for just the privilege of flying AS (8 total Ops losses). So between the German turn and up to the Soviets running an AS in the area I lose 31 German fighters, 21% from Ops losses. I would lose even more if I did attacks with the Soviets in the area with ground forces but I believe you can see that already I am at a 21% loss rate for just the privilege of flying AS in this area.

I had 3 flak losses explains the extra 3 losses btw

The another way you can tell if AS is running in a hex is a bit after the fact but can be used if you want to if your opponent is using it turn after turn. That is from the Logistics Report and here is one from my game with Jubjub. He has been running these AS missions pretty much the last few turns. Thus I could technically take advantage of this. personally I don't think you should see your opponents AS missions. But the is just me.

So AS is off the plate for me at the moment in current patch. It could work in protecting a single hex where the aircraft is stationed or maybe even one hex out from that hex if you want it protected. That is what Loki is talking about earlier as being specialized. Trying to use it to protect forward PZ's is not an option and should only rely on auto-intercept and thus at the mercy of the random number generator for that.

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Ok, going to answer the question of how to tell if AS is running in a hex. But first lets just do a dry run on AS at the beginning of a campaign game to get some numbers rolling and I will show you how you can tell during this dry run. I will start a campaign game and skip to turn 2. I will put all the Soviet aircraft on rest only so no interception is done & I will use just JG-3 to set up an AS into the Lvov Area turn 2. There is roughly 100 German Fighters for this and flying every single day from German bases. I run the Air phase and sustain 9 OPS losses off the bat before even engaging a single Soviet. Roughly a 9-10% casualty rate it looks like is the price just to have the privilege of flying Air Superiority. We pay the price for the privilege and move on.

I think it's more useful to to think about the losses in terms of losses per sortie. This should normalize the data and make comparisons easier. The OP's loss comes out to about 1.2% chance per sortie assuming you ran 100 sorties every day. Fighting battles under AS missions seems like a good way to kill your aircraft though lol. This really shouldn't occur any ops losses since no additional sorties are being flown and they already paid the piper during the air phase.

Seems to me AS is still broken.

ORIGINAL: jubjub

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Ok, going to answer the question of how to tell if AS is running in a hex. But first lets just do a dry run on AS at the beginning of a campaign game to get some numbers rolling and I will show you how you can tell during this dry run. I will start a campaign game and skip to turn 2. I will put all the Soviet aircraft on rest only so no interception is done & I will use just JG-3 to set up an AS into the Lvov Area turn 2. There is roughly 100 German Fighters for this and flying every single day from German bases. I run the Air phase and sustain 9 OPS losses off the bat before even engaging a single Soviet. Roughly a 9-10% casualty rate it looks like is the price just to have the privilege of flying Air Superiority. We pay the price for the privilege and move on.

I think it's more useful to to think about the losses in terms of losses per sortie. This should normalize the data and make comparisons easier. The OP's loss comes out to about 1.2% chance per sortie assuming you ran 100 sorties every day. Fighting battles under AS missions seems like a good way to kill your aircraft though lol. This really shouldn't occur any ops losses since no additional sorties are being flown and they already paid the piper during the air phase.

Thank you Jubjub. Yes, it is 100% the "BEST" way to kill your aircraft I have found. I did this twice in our game one turn for over 60 fighters and just last turn for another 24 and that is just flying around engaging nothing. Just think of my losses if I met any of your planes

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Seems to me AS is still broken.

I am sure the Dev team will get to the bottom of it. I only present what I see and at times not in the most elegant way.

Thank you Jubjub. Yes, it is 100% the "BEST" way to kill your aircraft I have found. I did this twice in our game one turn for over 60 fighters and just last turn for another 24 and that is just flying around engaging nothing. Just think of my losses if I met any of your planes

Yes, the issue is compounded by the combat model, which seems to pit every fighter against each other at the same time in a huge furball. This requires the Germans to fly huge sorties or else they can get wiped from the skies.

I'd like to see lower intensity A2A combat with engagements happening on the squadron and wing level. It doesn't seem feasible to organize 200+ fighters to fly and fight all together while escorting 200+ bombers. On the flip side, it doesn't seem realistic for german fighters to find and eliminate 500/500 bombers in a single day. These pilots had to spot tiny aircraft flying over a huge area to engage them.

ORIGINAL: jubjub

Thank you Jubjub. Yes, it is 100% the "BEST" way to kill your aircraft I have found. I did this twice in our game one turn for over 60 fighters and just last turn for another 24 and that is just flying around engaging nothing. Just think of my losses if I met any of your planes

Yes, the issue is compounded by the combat model, which seems to pit every fighter against each other at the same time in a huge furball. This requires the Germans to fly huge sorties or else they can get wiped from the skies.

I'd like to see lower intensity A2A combat with engagements happening on the squadron and wing level. It doesn't seem feasible to organize 200+ fighters to fly and fight all together while escorting 200+ bombers. On the flip side, it doesn't seem realistic for german fighters to find and eliminate 500/500 bombers in a single day. These pilots had to spot tiny aircraft flying over a huge area to engage them.

Your last sentence, "These pilots had to spot tiny aircraft flying over a huge area to engage them" is what I envision what AS is supposed to do by being out there hunting for incoming Aircraft. But in current patch that just isn't feasible to do.

Bleh, wife is begging for attention. Be back in a bit.

In WITW I used AS mission as the allied player to dominate the coastal areas and and destroy axis fighters. In WITE 2 I have quickly learned to never use AS missions. Once a solution is provided I will reconsider AS. Excellent discussion, virtual kudos to all.

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

In WITW I used AS mission as the allied player to dominate the coastal areas and and destroy axis fighters. In WITE 2 I have quickly learned to never use AS missions. Once a solution is provided I will reconsider AS. Excellent discussion, virtual kudos to all.

You can do that now in WITE2 (not with AS) to destroy fighter's. I am sure some have figured it out but is kind of cheesy to do so. I am reluctant to show it and thus don't use it. But it will eventually come up and I can bet you it will be quickly house ruled out.

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

In WITW I used AS mission as the allied player to dominate the coastal areas and and destroy axis fighters. In WITE 2 I have quickly learned to never use AS missions. Once a solution is provided I will reconsider AS. Excellent discussion, virtual kudos to all.

You can do that now in WITE2 (not with AS) to destroy fighter's. I am sure some have figured it out but is kind of cheesy to do so. I am reluctant to show it and thus don't use it. But it will eventually come up and I can bet you it will be quickly house ruled out.

You use Auto-intercept.

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Now we start to attack with the German forces in the area and get the result I am looking for right off the bat. No German aircraft were in Ground Support but I still lose a fighter! Why? Because of the Air Superiority. So now I lost my 10th German fighter because I am running AS in this area.

This is one of the ways to tell when an AS is present in the hex. Look for a hex that has no aircraft and if there are fighter losses then an AS is running. But lets continue a few more attacks.

Have you had a look at your fighter formations pre and post the first time this "phantom" loss occurs?

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

Given that no one can understand a fact until after it becomes a fact that appears to be a pretty inane statement. [8D]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

Given that no one can understand a fact until after it becomes a fact that appears to be a pretty inane statement. [8D]

Floccinaucinihilipilification

+1

You know maybe AS is not broken. I just ran a test with my version in the RTM scenario and I am not seeing OP losses in my hasty attacks. I am seeing a significant number of Soviet losses due to the Axis AD of one AS mission.

Maybe Lokki is right and AS is working just fine?

ORIGINAL: Zovs

You know maybe AS is not broken. I just ran a test with my version in the RTM scenario and I am not seeing OP losses in my hasty attacks. I am seeing a significant number of Soviet losses due to the Axis AD of one AS mission.

Maybe Lokki is right and AS is working just fine?

That sure could be true too. I don't know myself that is why I try to speak up and show what I see to the community. But there is no denying it has happened to me in the 41 campaign. I will now go take a look at RTM and see what I see. Thank you for pointing this out.