Matrix Games Forums

Double post..

AlvaroSousa wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:33 pm I took a QUICK look at it last night and really it all depends on how you look at the map. Using google earth rotating it is correct but on different maps it can look incorrect.

Latitude:

Riga - 56,93°
Moscow - 55,75°
Copenhagen - 55,67°
Smolensk - 54,79°
Vilnius - 54,68°
Minsk - 53,9°
Bryansk - 53,25°
Warsaw - 52,23°

Longitude:

Kiev - 30,31°
Gomel - 30,97°
Smolesnk - 32,02°
Cherkasy - 32,03°
Kharkov - 36,23°
Moscow - 37,61°
Stalino - 37,80°
Bryansk - 34,37°

Peter map projection:

Moscow must be plain north of Stalino (201,50)
Moscow must be plain east of Copenhagen (157,70)
Moscow must be at 201,70

Smolensk must be plain north of Cherkasy (192,53)
Smolensk must be plain east of Vilnius (180,67)
Smolensk must be at 192,67

I must say that whatever the map projection, this is impossible that Minsk (182,64) is on the same line than both Smolensk (190,64) and Moscow (198,64). Check the latitudes, Minsk (53,9°), Smolensk (54,79°) and Moscow (55,75°).

And in terms of game balance and time schedule, we are completely off track.

Look at this game. With a Barbarossa that has started early June 1941, end of August 1941 battle of Smolensk has ended.
Battle of Smolensk at its real location i.e. 192, 67. In the game, we are already at Rzhev.

Historically Batte of Smolensk was from July 10th to September 10th 1941.

Here the Panzers are already two hexes from Moscow. This is off track.

With a real map, game balance and time schedule are both correct.

---

First of all, nice mod
Second, good points.

I have done some measuring using Google Earth. All distances in kilometers.

From the Warplan manual:
Map Scales The map for the main scenarios is based on Peter’s Map design. That type of map defines actual distances between locations accounting for the curvature of the earth. Some locations were purposely made smaller to accommodate better play, for example, Northern Russia where Norway, Sweden, and Finland are. Most of the main scenario maps are 40–80km, 25–30m, per hex scales with the northern part representing more miles per hex.

PanzerMike wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 10:00 am I have done some measuring using Google Earth. All distances in kilometers.

From the Warplan manual:
Map Scales The map for the main scenarios is based on Peter’s Map design. That type of map defines actual distances between locations accounting for the curvature of the earth. Some locations were purposely made smaller to accommodate better play, for example, Northern Russia where Norway, Sweden, and Finland are. Most of the main scenario maps are 40–80km, 25–30m, per hex scales with the northern part representing more miles per hex.

Not sure to catch, what is your point?

Well, the distances in Google Earth and how they translate to the Warplan map don't seem very off. Or am I missing something?

PanzerMike wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 1:46 pm Well, the distances in Google Earth and how they translate to the Warplan map don't seem very off. Or am I missing something?

Yes the latitude and the longitude of these cities to place them correctly.

I looked at the longitude and latitude now too and you are correct. Moscow is in the wrong place, and so are some other places in that portion of the map. I concur.

Now I can never look at the map the same again.
It hurts

It's perspective.

Google Earth shows a curved earth properly. Mercator maps look different.

AlvaroSousa wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 2:42 pm It's perspective.

Google Earth shows a curved earth properly. Mercator maps look different.

All my comments are based on this book:
https://www.amazon.fr/Peters-World-Atla ... 0954049950

---

Last time I comment on this. I went to Google Earth out of curiosity.

As I said before, whatever the map projection, this is impossible that Minsk (182,64) is on the same line than both Smolensk (190,64) and Moscow (198,64). Check the latitudes, Minsk (53,9°), Smolensk (54,79°) and Moscow (55,75°).

And Google Earth is indeed showing this:

---

---

Compared to the game:

---

Zooming in a little, I stand by what I say.

Moscow must be plain north between Kharkov and Stalino thus between 200 and 201 in the game, thanks to Google Earth. I still say 201 due to the longitude.
Moscow must be plain east of Copenhagen (157,70). Perhaps a little lower than Copenhagen 69, thanks to Google Earth.

So I will say:
Moscow must be at 201,69

Smolensk must be plain north of Cherkasy (192,53)
Smolensk must be plain east of Vilnius (180,67)
Smolensk must be at 192,67

Google Earth:

---

---

In Game:

---

---

For the balance of the game, having Moscow in the right place seems important to me. But as I said, this is my last word on this topic.

Maybe for WarPlan 2? Big change this late in the game's life.

I agree that these map changes make a lot of sense. But it is quite a change. Not so much for two players games, but certainly for games versus the AI. Lots of things need to be changed for that.

WP2 is not exactly around the corner, so this game will have to soldier on for at least a year or more as I understand it.

Although it is a lot of work I might just give it a go (yes, including the AI IF I have the stamina)
Spot the changes

Well, I have adapted the AI (both on the map and all the scripts) to the new map of the northern USSR. A real chore

PanzerMike wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:25 pm Well, I have adapted the AI (both on the map and all the scripts) to the new map of the northern USSR.

Thanks for doing this. Would you mind explain how do you change this and display this screen? I am not super familiar with the editor. Are you adapting the scenario for small fleet? I hope so.

This is not the small fleet 1939, but I think that is just one parameter that needs to be changed.
@Alvaro, can you confirm this?

What do you think about the map changes in the screenshot? I have made more map changes but the northern USSR received a complete overhaul. Including the rail lines, but you will notice the rail lines have been changed over the whole map, not just the USSR. I used historical maps for this.

Explaining the magic of the editor and how the editor relates to the scripts is a long story. You really need to dive into it. I can't explain it in a few sentences. It is not easy, but doable.

I am not quite happy with your river lines. Check my sample map here.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 8#p5065648

The Oka river is turning south from Kaluga to Orel.
The Don river is finishing much more north between Ryazan and Tula.
This is not the Moskva river but the Klyazma river where you are putting your label.
There are plenty of rivers around Gomel to add.
The Mius river is never ending in the Donets river.
Change the shape of the Orel river.
Change the shape of the Volga river near Rzhev.
Add the Volga reservoir.
...

All this is already in my sample map and already correct. Just copy/paste them and we are fine.