Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: vvs007

it seems that behind many details and tools of air warfare, the DEV have lost the most important thing - to show the huge impact of air superiority and how important it is to challenge it ... today the meta strategy for Soviet aviation is to put it in reserve until the 1944 ... leave a few fighters in depth, hoping to shoot down a few scouts, bombers .... if the mechanics are pushing for non-historical decisions, then such mechanics are broken ... in fact, the Soviets fought hard and won air superiority to 1944 .. first changing fighters 1 to 5, then to 3 , and then they became equal and better ... that's how the irl war was won.

the Soviet player is concentrating a huge number of troops to strike in the summer of 41 - this is not historical, because irl LW thwarted such strikes, the total air superiority prevented the Russians from moving, supplying, kill artillery,... LW recon helped for german divizions to prepare to repel such counterattacks...

it is strange for me that in simpler schemes in TOAW 4 and HOI4 it works, but not in WITE2

Adjusting the balance in such simple games as HoI4 is much easier. You will never see environments in HoI, and if this happens, then in fact the opponent who allowed the environment lost.

In this case, it is not worth citing such an arcade game as HoI as an example.

The depth of gameplay in wite2 is undeniable.
Therefore, accurately reflecting all aspects of a real war is a laborious task, by changing aviation you also affect the ground component, and if everything is not taken into account and corrected, you will get one-sided games.

VVS is just insane in the most recent patch, in general there is a bucket of losses across the whole front if the VVS gets in action.

I've started 2 new games and pratically the Germans suffer greatly out of pure VVS bombing.
The Luftwaffe does not cope - when they intercept it's all good. But when they do not ...

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

VVS is just insane in the most recent patch, in general there is a bucket of losses across the whole front if the VVS gets in action.

I've started 2 new games and pratically the Germans suffer greatly out of pure VVS bombing.
The Luftwaffe does not cope - when they intercept it's all good. But when they do not ...

So after all, this is reflected in the documents of the German and Soviet sides, when their own aircraft cease to cover the battlefield for some reason. Questions immediately arise in the documents, where is our aviation? Organize a cover. We are being hit and we are losing...

The USSR has exactly the same problems. If you think that the Soviet player does not feel the strikes of your aircraft, you are mistaken. He often hurts more than you.

@Shaggy - Sorry but you do not play the game enough from my perspective ... here how much the 70+ LW bombers cope: (This is from my Soviet game)

All the while, unopposed VVS bombers ...

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

@Shaggy - Sorry but you do not play the game enough from my perspective ... here how much the 70+ LW bombers cope: (This is from my Soviet game)

I am sure that in this case you did not use a large caliber of bombs, although the USSR has 2 fortifications.
Secondly, you use Ju-88 and He-111 line aircraft for ground support, do you understand that these aircraft are not suitable for direct ground support? You make mistakes at the preparation stage and when you see unsuccessful fights, you think that everything is lost.

And even in such a situation, your planes were able to suppress 1/4 of the Soviet guns.

I am the Soviet here - red screen if you can see Shaggy.

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

I am the Soviet here - red screen if you can see Shaggy.

The only thing I disagree with is that the IL-2 was so good at destroying a whole battalion of Stugs.
13 out of 15 by the actions of one aviation is, of course, not realistic.

And the fact that you are on the Soviet side does not change the main message. That on the German side the use of aviation in battle was with incorrect settings.


Again, speaking of aviation, one must understand that German aviation could dominate a narrow section of the front, but in other directions, there are constant complaints about losses from Soviet aviation from German ground units.
And there is nothing strange in the fact that Soviet pilots, without encountering resistance, can hit targets.

But this is not a problem of air efficiency, this is a problem of the replenishment system, which prioritizes the African direction of the western front and other theaters of war of the German player.
The issue here is that in the current replenishment system, the German player is not able to replenish losses.

There is a fine line here, in reality the German army suffered heavy losses precisely on the Soviet-German front. And no matter how anyone would like to say that the actions of the Americans and the British brought some significant effect, the German army suffered a much larger part of the losses in the East. Especially if we talk about 41-42-43 and this is just as true, and it's hard to argue, and for most of the 44 years.

A huge part of the replenishment went precisely to the East.

In the game, the Soviet player is not able to inflict significant losses on the German player most of the game time.
Logistical losses are always an order of magnitude higher than losses incurred in battles or air actions, but also the German player is not able to make up for any losses in the East due to the fact that probably 80% of replenishments go to parts behind the map, which is not true.

There is a fine line of customization here.

If the German player gets the opportunity to replenish, but the Soviet player cannot inflict losses, then the German army will not sag, as it happened in reality.
If the Soviet player can inflict more casualties, but the German player does not get the opportunity to replenish, then the German army will end too quickly. And both variants are of course anti-historical, and break the atmosphere of the war.

And here you need an integrated approach. Which, on the one hand, will allow the Soviet player to increase the losses inflicted on the German army, but on the other hand, give the German player the opportunity to make up for these losses.

I have similar experience as Albert. Air support is super effective vs AT guns and arty. I had no chance to use my own bombers yet.

It is blizzard turns right now. Without air support guns losses are 1:2. With it is 1:1. Is it reincarnation of arty patch, but in terms of flying artillery?

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK
...
In the game, the Soviet player is not able to inflict significant losses on the German player most of the game time.
...

If only German player could inflict historical ~5 mil Soviet losses in `41 instead of 2.5, maximum 3 mil like it is right now...

ORIGINAL: Stamb

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK
...
In the game, the Soviet player is not able to inflict significant losses on the German player most of the game time.
...

If only German player could inflict historical ~5 mil Soviet losses in `41 instead of 2.5, maximum 3 mil like it is right now...

If the Soviet player suffers such losses in 41, then he will end up somewhere on the line Arkhangelsk - Saratov - Astrakhan.
Would you be interested in playing this? Unless you do not need difficulties, but only a relaxed game like with counter-strike cheats

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

ORIGINAL: Stamb

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK
...
In the game, the Soviet player is not able to inflict significant losses on the German player most of the game time.
...

If only German player could inflict historical ~5 mil Soviet losses in `41 instead of 2.5, maximum 3 mil like it is right now...

If the Soviet player suffers such losses in 41, then he will end up somewhere on the line Arkhangelsk - Saratov - Astrakhan.
Would you be interested in playing this? Unless you do not need difficulties, but only a relaxed game like with counter-strike cheats

Should not. Depending on the source 4,4-4,8 Million casualties in 1941 and the front was far from the one you describe.


More or less the historical line, before winter offensive, vs the line you describe in the game map.

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

ORIGINAL: Stamb

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK
...
In the game, the Soviet player is not able to inflict significant losses on the German player most of the game time.
...

If only German player could inflict historical ~5 mil Soviet losses in `41 instead of 2.5, maximum 3 mil like it is right now...

If the Soviet player suffers such losses in 41, then he will end up somewhere on the line Arkhangelsk - Saratov - Astrakhan.
Would you be interested in playing this? Unless you do not need difficulties, but only a relaxed game like with counter-strike cheats

Let's have a look at an example of a game.

T53 - 21 Jun 1942- Russian casualties 6.586 million men. Fair to say they had 5 million casualties in 41.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5110929&mpage=1&key=

Let's now look at how that ended.

June 43, Russian player concedes.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5110929&mpage=19&key=

Yes, we definitely need more games with Russians casualties reaching 5 million in 41 so as they can surrender mid 43.

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox


Let's have a look at an example of a game.

T53 - 21 Jun 1942- Russian casualties 6.586 million men. Fair to say they had 5 million casualties in 41.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5110929&mpage=1&key=

Let's now look at how that ended.

June 43, Russian player concedes.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5110929&mpage=19&key=


Yes, we definitely need more games with Russians casualties reaching 5 million in 41 so as they can surrender mid 43.

And how many were the historical casualties in 1941 + the first half of 1942? More than that.

And still they did not surrender.

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

ORIGINAL: Stamb



If only German player could inflict historical ~5 mil Soviet losses in `41 instead of 2.5, maximum 3 mil like it is right now...

If the Soviet player suffers such losses in 41, then he will end up somewhere on the line Arkhangelsk - Saratov - Astrakhan.
Would you be interested in playing this? Unless you do not need difficulties, but only a relaxed game like with counter-strike cheats

Let's have a look at an example of a game.

T53 - 21 Jun 1942- Russian casualties 6.586 million men. Fair to say they had 5 million casualties in 41.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5110929&mpage=1&key=

Let's now look at how that ended.

June 43, Russian player concedes.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5110929&mpage=19&key=

Yes, we definitely need more games with Russians casualties reaching 5 million in 41 so as they can surrender mid 43.

Seeing that you brought in my AAR as reference - I'd like to underline that '41 was ever relative there and both players have made a few statements on what they feel that may have led to the '43 wrapping.

If then one desires to just look at numbers and think 'Ah there is the mandatory outcome' then do so, but it's just a partial insight of facts.

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

If the Soviet player suffers such losses in 41, then he will end up somewhere on the line Arkhangelsk - Saratov - Astrakhan.
Would you be interested in playing this? Unless you do not need difficulties, but only a relaxed game like with counter-strike cheats

It would be not interesting. Game should be balanced.
You was saying that Axis do not suffer historical losses, and I replied that Soviets do not suffer it either.
I would be glad to have historical losses for both sides and ability to counter attack for the Soviets.

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox

Sure lets look only on a games where Soviets lose.

What about this one were panzers were completely trashed and Axis gave up?
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5135309

And how close to a historical frontline do we get here with 2.5 mil losses in `41?
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4992932

What happens when we count Axis and Soviet victories in this topic?
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5076008

In ideal world it should be 50/50, I believe. What do we have now?

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK



If the Soviet player suffers such losses in 41, then he will end up somewhere on the line Arkhangelsk - Saratov - Astrakhan.
Would you be interested in playing this? Unless you do not need difficulties, but only a relaxed game like with counter-strike cheats

Let's have a look at an example of a game.

T53 - 21 Jun 1942- Russian casualties 6.586 million men. Fair to say they had 5 million casualties in 41.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5110929&mpage=1&key=

Let's now look at how that ended.

June 43, Russian player concedes.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5110929&mpage=19&key=

Yes, we definitely need more games with Russians casualties reaching 5 million in 41 so as they can surrender mid 43.

Seeing that you brought in my AAR as reference - I'd like to underline that '41 was ever relative there and both players have made a few statements on what they feel that may have led to the '43 wrapping.

If then one desires to just look at numbers and think 'Ah there is the mandatory outcome' then do so, but it's just a partial insight of facts.

I make a number of points re your AAR.

1. The Russian casualties in 41 were 5 million or thereabouts. The number you require to have a balanced game. Balanced in this sense means the Russians resign in mid 43, as that is what happened in your game.

2. The circumstances that come about for the Russians to lose this number of troops will mean 41 was a disaster in WITE2 terms, not the historical war the game is based upon.

3. It is my contention and I am not alone, that should the Russians in WITE2 lose 5 million men in 41 the most likely outcome will be a German victory.

4. I am not disputing the historical losses the Russians incurred, but rather that this historical figure needs to be reached to have a "balanced" game.

ORIGINAL: Stamb

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

If the Soviet player suffers such losses in 41, then he will end up somewhere on the line Arkhangelsk - Saratov - Astrakhan.
Would you be interested in playing this? Unless you do not need difficulties, but only a relaxed game like with counter-strike cheats

It would be not interesting. Game should be balanced.
You was saying that Axis do not suffer historical losses, and I replied that Soviets do not suffer it either.
I would be glad to have historical losses for both sides and ability to counter attack for the Soviets.

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox

Sure lets look only on a games where Soviets lose.

What about this one were panzers were completely trashed and Axis gave up?
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5135309

And how close to a historical frontline do we get here with 2.5 mil losses in `41?
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4992932

What happens when we count Axis and Soviet victories in this topic?
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5076008

In ideal world it should be 50/50, I believe. What do we have now?

I am not sure why you are posting these stats now and referencing them to what I said.

I said that 5 million Russian casualties in 41 will most likely result in a German victory.

I have never said that the game in its current form is "balanced" so you inferring that I think it is, is false and misleading.

I have said that the patch after (and those following on from) the arty patch is the most balanced we have since the game began.

I do believe the Germans are still behind the eight ball but maybe not as much as the German fan club.

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox
I am not sure why you are posting these stats now and referencing them to what I said.

I said that 5 million Russian casualties in 41 will most likely result in a German victory.

I have never said that the game in its current form is "balanced" so you inferring that I think it is, is false and misleading.

I have said that the patch after (and those following on from) the arty patch is the most balanced we have since the game began.

I do believe the Germans are still behind the eight ball but maybe not as much as the German fan club.

You made your posts in such a way that shows that 2.5 mil losses are auto victory for the Axis.
Especially with this one:

Yes, we definitely need more games with Russians casualties reaching 5 million in 41 so as they can surrender mid 43.

Which I countered with other AARs.