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MSUjohn wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:57 am

MSUjohn wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:45 pm 3CV task force
3CV task force
4BB task force

all sailing in consort mauled and i mean mauled by a 4CV Japanese task force.
my super battle group was providing cover for an assault of four infantry divisions, three 155mm artillery battalions, 1 engineer battalion, a tank battalion and their dozens of accompanying assault ships (including more BB and DD)

they haven't worked my assault force yet, my 6 CV did not sink one of their ships.

6 on 4.....i am starting to hate this game.

(and yes i dont know how to take screen shots)

after this pulping i cheated and reloaded the game. but it just happened again.
how can 6 CV and 7 BB get so completely crushed by three CVs?

starting to hate the game.

Please describe your air units compositions and orders, take a picture of the map, post it with a diagram of before then do one with a diagram of after. I want to see how you are operating. Also, please give a date . . .

MSUjohn wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:57 am

MSUjohn wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:45 pm 3CV task force
3CV task force
4BB task force

all sailing in consort mauled and i mean mauled by a 4CV Japanese task force.
my super battle group was providing cover for an assault of four infantry divisions, three 155mm artillery battalions, 1 engineer battalion, a tank battalion and their dozens of accompanying assault ships (including more BB and DD)

they haven't worked my assault force yet, my 6 CV did not sink one of their ships.

6 on 4.....i am starting to hate this game.

(and yes i dont know how to take screen shots)

after this pulping i cheated and reloaded the game. but it just happened again.
how can 6 CV and 7 BB get so completely crushed by three CVs?

starting to hate the game.

Spotting the enemy TF and pilot skill is important. Also remember that Allied strike coordination is limited in the early game. Don't hate the game. It has a steep learning curve....GP

MSUjohn wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:57 am

MSUjohn wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:45 pm 3CV task force
3CV task force
4BB task force

all sailing in consort mauled and i mean mauled by a 4CV Japanese task force.
my super battle group was providing cover for an assault of four infantry divisions, three 155mm artillery battalions, 1 engineer battalion, a tank battalion and their dozens of accompanying assault ships (including more BB and DD)

they haven't worked my assault force yet, my 6 CV did not sink one of their ships.

6 on 4.....i am starting to hate this game.

(and yes i dont know how to take screen shots)

after this pulping i cheated and reloaded the game. but it just happened again.
how can 6 CV and 7 BB get so completely crushed by three CVs?

starting to hate the game.

Short answer is, you are doing something wrong. Finding out what it is is part of the attraction of the game.

Even 3 CV TF, CVs should have way bigger CAP than just 20 planes.

IJN was better in carrier operations until 1943 (apart from Midway), since their basic unit was not individual carrier but carrier division of 2 CVs. And Kido Butai in early war had 3 carrier divisions, both carriers in division had their defined roles.

Some reasons of bad outcome might also be inadequate scouting/search (happened to IJN in Midway too) and longer range of Japanese planes.

But basically there seems to be something wrong with your CAP in that battle, too small % maybe?

To add to what GP said about spotting, the Japanese have longer ranged float planes (Jakes) which their cruisers and BBs launch at dawn. To get an edge on spotting, you need to include some night search by patrol aircraft (large area coverage) and your CV TF float planes (on your CAs and CLs). Only with very early spotting will your CVs launch a morning attack. Early in the game it is common for the Japanese to make the first strike in the morning and a follow-up strike in the afternoon. This put the Allied player at an extreme disadvantage as their CVs could be sunk or crippled before they launched anything. The only solution I know of is to spot them first.

A distasteful option is to offer a sacrificial lamb to the Japanese strikes - like a bunch of transports laden with troops. BBs are also good strike magnets but at game start their AA is so weak the Japanese can sink them and still do their afternoon strike against your carriers.

MSUjohn wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 7:45 pm all sailing in consort mauled and i mean mauled by a 4CV Japanese task force.

Given some of the fighters listed in your air strike, I'm guessing this is early war (1942?). It is pretty much suicide to try and go up against the Japanese carriers in 1942, and 1943 won't be much better unless you can tailor the fight so you have an assist from friendly land based air. Once you get all the CV's you have upgraded with F6F fighters you can then go toe to toe with a decent chance at winning (assuming you've focused on training up all your pilots as much as possible), but before then Japan's highly experienced pilots will shred your early war fighters and low skill pilots.

I usually spend 1942 training my pilots up. Once they reach a level where training doesn't help anymore then I go looking for some quick hit and run milk runs along the edge of Japan's defensive perimeter to increase their skills further. But if I see any signs of Japan's carriers (a carpet of lots of subs spread around in the areas you want to operate help with this as they get spotted by carrier planes thus alerting you to the CV's presence), I sprint away to get under land based air protection ASAP.

After your F6F upgrades is when you should be looking to start pushing back against Japan, earlier than that may see some localized success if you aren't opposed, but there is a huge chance you will pay a very high price if Japan shows up with its CV's as it's probably a 90%-95% guarantee you get wiped out and do little damage in return due to your crappy planes and low skill pilots. If you manage to get most of your pilots trained up into the 70's skill wise then the F4F can do ok, but it's more of an even fight or slightly in Japan's favor with that air frame, thus waiting for the F6F is more reliable if you want to keep most of your carriers afloat.

Edit:

Forgot to mention, coordination is a huge problem for the allies early war. Snipped from rule 7.2.1.11:

The coordination of air strikes is affected by how many Carrier aircraft are based in
the TF launching a strike. The chance of uncoordination is doubled under the following
circumstances:
»» Allied TF in 1942 and the number of aircraft in the
TF is greater than 100 + rnd (100).
»» Allied TF in 1943 and the number of aircraft in the
TF is greater than 150 + rnd (150).
»» Allied TF in 1944 or later or a Japanese TF at any time and the
number of aircraft in the TF is greater than 200 + rnd (200).

BBfanboy wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:26 pm Small correction: Low Nav skill is used from 100 to 1999 feet. 2000 and up uses NavB. The air model received a major revamp around 2014 IIRC, where the dividing line for high/low was set at 2000 feet instead of 6000 feet. In the same update (patch), glide bombing was removed from the game so references to it in the manual are moot.

Seems everyone, me as well, thinks and uses this but I can't find it documented anywhere. All I can find remotely referencing it is this from 2014 '218. Fixed altitude reporting error when altitude less than 6000’. Seem a little light on info for such an important change.

There this from 2009 on change to glide bombing altitudes. '62. Gameplay Change: Placed limits on glide bombing altitudes. A TD/DB/FB/F group must be at 10-20K altitude to perform glide bombing, otherwise it is a normal level bombing attack. Groups were at maximum altitude and conducting glide bombs attack, sometimes without engaging CAP or flak.' That too early and it's still glide bombing.

That's bit strange, since at least my dive bombers perform standard dive bombing when set to e.g. 15k (which I use as default).

Glide bombing was completely removed when the air combat model received a major overhaul. I think the patch notes mention the major update.

Dive bombing is 10-15k. 9k and under they will level bomb and if you set them at 16k, they will level bomb too.

Also at night they only level bomb.
You can see it by the message in combat summary saying 'releasing from XXXX height'.

Dive bombing releases from 1k-3k, I do not know if EXP or flak or what affects it.

JanSako wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 7:12 pm Dive bombing is 10-15k. 9k and under they will level bomb and if you set them at 16k, they will level bomb too.

Also at night they only level bomb.
You can see it by the message in combat summary saying 'releasing from XXXX height'.

Dive bombing releases from 1k-3k, I do not know if EXP or flak or what affects it.

There is supposed to be another dive bombing band above 20K. I am not sure if it starts at 20K exactly or maybe 21K but it goes to 25K IIRC. I think it might use a reduced bomb load. I have never used anything beyond the 10K-15K band for dive bombing so I don't recall the details of the higher band.

Don't know about the dive bombing above 20K? I'll give it a test.

The orignal heights of 10-14K dive, 15-19K glide any other height level. After the change and what I work with now is level is now 15K+.

I recently reinstalled the game to 26a and have therefore got all the default intalled files on my machine. I've search the whole of the folder and all I can find that even remotely associated with the change is what I posted earlier from what's new files? I find it odd that there's nothing?

OK tested various height from 100' to 26K using mainly Vals but threw in some Bettys.

I found dive bombing occured between 10-15K inclusive with a release height between 1-3K. There were a few stray releases at 10K, probably pilots who didn't want to push their luck. I could not get DB to dive bomb outside of this height range.

No evidence of glide bombing

Level bombing occurred at ever other height with release height same as mission height.

Here's a few results at the same target two hexes away.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
9K

Raid detected at 53 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 19 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D3A1 Val x 12
...

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x D3A1 Val bombing from 9000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10K

Raid detected at 111 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 41 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D3A1 Val x 16
'''

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 test at 14K

Raid detected at 119 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 44 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D3A1 Val x 5
...

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 10000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
Aircraft Attacking:
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 tests at 15K

Raid detected at 108 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 40 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D3A1 Val x 16
...

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x D3A1 Val releasing from 10000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
13 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
Aircraft Attacking:
1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
3 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
6 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
Aircraft Attacking:
1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 10000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
6 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 tests at 16K

Raid detected at 92 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 39 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D3A1 Val x 14
...

Aircraft Attacking:
16 x D3A1 Val bombing from 16000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
Aircraft Attacking:
13 x D3A1 Val bombing from 16000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
Aircraft Attacking:
11 x D3A1 Val bombing from 16000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 test at 19K

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D3A1 Val x 16
...

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x D3A1 Val bombing from 19000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
Aircraft Attacking:
14 x D3A1 Val bombing from 19000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
Aircraft Attacking:
11 x D3A1 Val bombing from 19000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 test at 20K

Raid detected at 66 NM, estimated altitude 25,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D3A1 Val x 16
...

Aircraft Attacking:
16 x D3A1 Val bombing from 20000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
Aircraft Attacking:
14 x D3A1 Val bombing from 20000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg AP Bomb
2 x D3A1 Val bombing from 20000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb

When using dive bombers at the proper altitude and you see some dropping bombs at 10k or whatever altitude that they start at, it means that the target already sank.

Wish you had tried 21K feet in one of your tests. As I said, I am not sure if the high level DB band started at 20K or 21K feet. It is also possible that the last official patch eliminated that higher level band completely so a test at 21K would show whether that happened.

BBfanboy wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 6:18 pm Wish you had tried 21K feet in one of your tests. As I said, I am not sure if the high level DB band started at 20K or 21K feet. It is also possible that the last official patch eliminated that higher level band completely so a test at 21K would show whether that happened.

I did, I didn't post it. Did test from 100' up to 26K and anything outside of the 10-15K ranges was level bombing.

To clarify I tested on 11.26a. I have tried the latest changes but reverted to 26a as I'm not a fan of the latest, certainly not until some of the bugs are ironed out anyway.

RangerJoe wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 2:09 pm When using dive bombers at the proper altitude and you see some dropping bombs at 10k or whatever altitude that they start at, it means that the target already sank.

That explains the 10K, thanks.

Chris21wen wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2023 6:31 am

BBfanboy wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 6:18 pm Wish you had tried 21K feet in one of your tests. As I said, I am not sure if the high level DB band started at 20K or 21K feet. It is also possible that the last official patch eliminated that higher level band completely so a test at 21K would show whether that happened.

I did, I didn't post it. Did test from 100' up to 26K and anything outside of the 10-15K ranges was level bombing.

To clarify I tested on 11.26a. I have tried the latest changes but reverted to 26a as I'm not a fan of the latest, certainly not until some of the bugs are ironed out anyway.

Which bugs are 'bugging you' that much? Sorry for hijacking the thread, I am about to start a game on 11.27 so would love to know. Scen or map bugs I am not worried about since I play Bottlenecks.

Chris21wen wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2023 6:32 am

RangerJoe wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 2:09 pm When using dive bombers at the proper altitude and you see some dropping bombs at 10k or whatever altitude that they start at, it means that the target already sank.

That explains the 10K, thanks.

You are most welcome.

JanSako wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2023 7:56 am

Chris21wen wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2023 6:31 am

BBfanboy wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 6:18 pm Wish you had tried 21K feet in one of your tests. As I said, I am not sure if the high level DB band started at 20K or 21K feet. It is also possible that the last official patch eliminated that higher level band completely so a test at 21K would show whether that happened.

I did, I didn't post it. Did test from 100' up to 26K and anything outside of the 10-15K ranges was level bombing.

To clarify I tested on 11.26a. I have tried the latest changes but reverted to 26a as I'm not a fan of the latest, certainly not until some of the bugs are ironed out anyway.

Which bugs are 'bugging you' that much? Sorry for hijacking the thread, I am about to start a game on 11.27 so would love to know. Scen or map bugs I am not worried about since I play Bottlenecks.

Bug is the wrong word, it's the whole feel of the game. I will probably switch to it once it settles down.