Matrix Games Forums

And here is an example of one of the cav corps on turn 26 that was chasing down Jango's 88th Division. Location of 88th division circled in red.



Notice I have only 59% TOE and only 24 CPP (and due to my mistake, not getting reinforcements to strengthen its TOE).

If it were a well planned offensive, I would have some full TOE 100 CPP units here for these follow up attacks.

But that was not possible due to Soviets having so few men on the map on turn 23, this was a hastily thrown together shoestring winter offensive thrown together from nothing within the space of just 2 turns of preparation, not a well planned thought out operation.

And here is a link back to the post where you can see that same cav corps (4th cav corps) attacking our beloved 88th Infantry Division:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 8#p5139988

Beethoven1 wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:39 pm Also one minor observation here. In jasonbroomer's screenshot of his Guards Rifle Corps, the "Assign Support Units" button is yellow rather than greyed out.

I think this means no multi-role SUs (rifle brigades etc) are attached. If so, then jasonbroomer could be doing a lot more than he is doing, he is not utilizing one of the strongest Soviet powers on one of his strongest units.

It is possible that he previously had them attached and un-attached them after the unit lost the battle and maybe is sending them to STAVKA to refit or something. But if so, that is a mistake, he can refit them on the map while still being attached to his Guards Rifle Corps without causing any supply problems, while also gaining CPP. By sending to STAVKA, he is losing CPP unnecessarily, if that is what he is doing.

Just a minor tip which hopefully may be helpful to some readers.

My opponent's supply system is kaput. I reckoned that the Guard Corps was strong enough with 100 CPP not to need any SUs (I probably would have added some ski battalions if it attacked). I'm finding that the Axis losses are similar regardless of the CV differential. What seems to make more difference is Axis fatigue and retreat path options (higher retreat losses when retreating into a Soviet ZOC). I prefer therefore to have lots of small successful attacks rather than massing my troops for a few overwhelming victories.

Interestingly, attacking with mech/tank brigades does not appear to elevate Axis retreat losses (unlike when the Axis are attacking)

jasonbroomer wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 12:40 pmInterestingly, attacking with mech/tank brigades does not appear to elevate Axis retreat losses (unlike when the Axis are attacking)

I think the reason for that is the extra retreat losses depend mostly on the binary setting of whether a unit is motorized or non-motorized, and then that applies to all the elements in the unit. So, since tank brigades are very small, you do not notice much visible effect.

If you attack instead with tank/motorized/mechanized divisions (later corps), which have a much larger number of motorized elements, you should see a little bit more of an effect, but nevertheless it is definitely more limited than when Axis attacks Soviets, which is due to the morale difference.

Beethoven1 wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 5:15 pm

jasonbroomer wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 12:40 pmInterestingly, attacking with mech/tank brigades does not appear to elevate Axis retreat losses (unlike when the Axis are attacking)

I think the reason for that is the extra retreat losses depend mostly on the binary setting of whether a unit is motorized or non-motorized, and then that applies to all the elements in the unit. So, since tank brigades are very small, you do not notice much visible effect.

If you attack instead with tank/motorized/mechanized divisions (later corps), which have a much larger number of motorized elements, you should see a little bit more of an effect, but nevertheless it is definitely more limited than when Axis attacks Soviets, which is due to the morale difference.

Do not take this for guarantee but I believe it depends from the 'real' unit and not the SU attached too.

Which to me makes sense - but that's what I witnessed. Like a Tank Brigade that is attached to an Infantry Division acts as 'Infantry Tank', and not as a breakthrough force poised to pursue an enemy routing.
Same if the Germans attach a RFSS Brigade that's motorized to an Infantry Division, and that Infantry Division routs a Soviet unit - losses are not guaranteed to be heinous.

AlbertN wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 7:34 pm

Beethoven1 wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 5:15 pm

jasonbroomer wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 12:40 pmInterestingly, attacking with mech/tank brigades does not appear to elevate Axis retreat losses (unlike when the Axis are attacking)

I think the reason for that is the extra retreat losses depend mostly on the binary setting of whether a unit is motorized or non-motorized, and then that applies to all the elements in the unit. So, since tank brigades are very small, you do not notice much visible effect.

If you attack instead with tank/motorized/mechanized divisions (later corps), which have a much larger number of motorized elements, you should see a little bit more of an effect, but nevertheless it is definitely more limited than when Axis attacks Soviets, which is due to the morale difference.

Do not take this for guarantee but I believe it depends from the 'real' unit and not the SU attached too.

Which to me makes sense - but that's what I witnessed. Like a Tank Brigade that is attached to an Infantry Division acts as 'Infantry Tank', and not as a breakthrough force poised to pursue an enemy routing.
Same if the Germans attach a RFSS Brigade that's motorized to an Infantry Division, and that Infantry Division routs a Soviet unit - losses are not guaranteed to be heinous.

It's a general question that noone really seem to know how it works and/or some people testing stuff without sharing their findings (due to several possible reasons).
Besides this, just imagine for a second if a attached or rolled Artillery SU would cause more RTR damage by itself as it would be done by a Tank CU.

Like:

1. What defines an attack to be a MOT status attack?
   1. any MOT CU?
   2. any MOT SU?
      1. rolled SU possible?
      2. attached SU possible?
   3. best CV CU?
   4. what about RESERVE?
2. Does the system differentiate between DAMaged elements before combat and DAMaged elements during combat to be "overrun"?
3. Whats the scale of that effect, so MOT vs NON-MOT?

Beethoven1 wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 5:15 pm

jasonbroomer wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 12:40 pmInterestingly, attacking with mech/tank brigades does not appear to elevate Axis retreat losses (unlike when the Axis are attacking)

I think the reason for that is the extra retreat losses depend mostly on the binary setting of whether a unit is motorized or non-motorized, and then that applies to all the elements in the unit. So, since tank brigades are very small, you do not notice much visible effect.

If you attack instead with tank/motorized/mechanized divisions (later corps), which have a much larger number of motorized elements, you should see a little bit more of an effect, but nevertheless it is definitely more limited than when Axis attacks Soviets, which is due to the morale difference.

I can not fully follow you on this. My general understanding is/was that it is about the MOT status of the unit and/or any unit in the battle (therefore my questioning about the system before), so each battle (to me) can only be either "fully MOT or fully NON-MOT" (depending on what defines this status for an attack).
Your statement suggests, that it is in some way related to individual elements which are in MOT units and when they Dam/(DIS) something, the system recognizes those elements being DAM/DES by a MOT and therefore have higher chance of being RTR? That's what you are trying to say or am I interpreting you wrong?

I understood Beethoven implies there can be some sort of 'pursuit' mechanic, where mobile elements (of a mobile unit, be it a Combat Units or a Support unit) may inflict rout punishment to the fleeing unit(s).
Thus if the mobile component is just a Tank Brigade of the Soviets, which is relatively small - the rout won't be as tragic as if it's a whole Panzer Division pursueing some running soldiers of a rifle division.