Matrix Games Forums

jwilkerson wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2024 3:47 pm Actually, we're going back and forth with Matrix trying to get the build perfect.
Its no longer about the code or the data for the game.
Its about making sure we have exactly the correct versions of each necessary file in the build. And this has turned out to be harder that I expected.
But we are definitely "almost done".
A few more weeks.

Thanks again!

... How close is close?

Half the remaining distance !!??

jwilkerson wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 6:56 pm

... How close is close?

Half the remaining distance !!??

I know!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

RangerJoe wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 7:37 pm

jwilkerson wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 6:56 pm

... How close is close?

Half the remaining distance !!??

I know!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

Oooof, that made my head hurt Joe!

jwilkerson wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2024 3:47 pm Actually, we're going back and forth with Matrix trying to get the build perfect.
Its no longer about the code or the data for the game.
Its about making sure we have exactly the correct versions of each necessary file in the build. And this has turned out to be harder that I expected.
But we are definitely "almost done".
A few more weeks.

This quote goes back to July, but just out of curiosity I wonder I anyone can think of any other Matrix title that has gone through a patching process that has taken this long or been as convoluted?

pz501 wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 10:07 pm

jwilkerson wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2024 3:47 pm Actually, we're going back and forth with Matrix trying to get the build perfect.
Its no longer about the code or the data for the game.
Its about making sure we have exactly the correct versions of each necessary file in the build. And this has turned out to be harder that I expected.
But we are definitely "almost done".
A few more weeks.

This quote goes back to July, but just out of curiosity I wonder I anyone can think of any other Matrix title that has gone through a patching process that has taken this long or been as convoluted?

Since AFAIK there is no other Matrix title being updated entirely by volunteers, any comparison of timeline would be moot.

pz501 wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 10:07 pm This quote goes back to July, but just out of curiosity I wonder I anyone can think of any other Matrix title that has gone through a patching process that has taken this long or been as convoluted?

Jwilkerson has stated in the past that everything with this build seems to take 10 times longer than expected. I imagine a lot of it is due to the age of the code, the complexity of the code and the fact that a lot of the principals in its development aren't available anymore or have to re-learn things they had long forgotten. The game being 15 years old probably doesn't place it high on the Matrix priority list either.

Moltrey wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 9:40 pm

RangerJoe wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 7:37 pm

jwilkerson wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 6:56 pm


Half the remaining distance !!??

I know!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

Oooof, that made my head hurt Joe!

Platoonist wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 11:11 pm

pz501 wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2024 10:07 pm This quote goes back to July, but just out of curiosity I wonder I anyone can think of any other Matrix title that has gone through a patching process that has taken this long or been as convoluted?

Jwilkerson has stated in the past that everything with this build seems to take 10 times longer than expected. I imagine a lot of it is due to the age of the code, the complexity of the code and the fact that a lot of the principals in its development aren't available anymore or have to re-learn things they had long forgotten. The game being 15 years old probably doesn't place it high on the Matrix priority list either.

This makes perfect sense and answers my question. Just looking through the credits and the earliest forum posts I can see that the vast majority of the development team and play testers are no longer around or involved. Fifteen years is a long time indeed. People move on, lose touch, and in some cases pass away.

I wonder what sort of shape the code is in? If it's anything like TOAW's (I was for a short period a beta for TOAW IV, and its code was described to us as being as twisted as a bowl of spaghetti) then I wouldn't be surprised. This is a pretty old program that I'll bet doesn't bring in much revenue for Matrix anymore given the age and non-sale asking price.

My $0.02:

I would agree it is partly that many of the original devs have moved on. But, actually I feel the biggest part is simply that as the game has evolved with the input of the players, its complexity has increased manifold. The interrelations of so many of the variables has increased. Thus, testing when a variable has been adjusted to improve (or correct) one outcome, must also be tested to ensure that a host of other outcomes still remains reasonable and correct. This just takes a lot of time and patience on both the beta-testers and the coder.

PaxMondo wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2024 4:10 am My $0.02:

I would agree it is partly that many of the original devs have moved on. But, actually I feel the biggest part is simply that as the game has evolved with the input of the players, its complexity has increased manifold. The interrelations of so many of the variables has increased. Thus, testing when a variable has been adjusted to improve (or correct) one outcome, must also be tested to ensure that a host of other outcomes still remains reasonable and correct. This just takes a lot of time and patience on both the beta-testers and the coder.

I think back to reading about some of the problems in the AAR between Greyjoy and Rader. Some of the problems required fixes due to the scale of the air combats.

PaxMondo wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2024 4:10 am My $0.02:

I would agree it is partly that many of the original devs have moved on. But, actually I feel the biggest part is simply that as the game has evolved with the input of the players, its complexity has increased manifold. The interrelations of so many of the variables has increased. Thus, testing when a variable has been adjusted to improve (or correct) one outcome, must also be tested to ensure that a host of other outcomes still remains reasonable and correct. This just takes a lot of time and patience on both the beta-testers and the coder.

I wonder how different the game was when it was released back in 2009.

Nazcatraz wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2024 2:52 pm

PaxMondo wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2024 4:10 am My $0.02:

I would agree it is partly that many of the original devs have moved on. But, actually I feel the biggest part is simply that as the game has evolved with the input of the players, its complexity has increased manifold. The interrelations of so many of the variables has increased. Thus, testing when a variable has been adjusted to improve (or correct) one outcome, must also be tested to ensure that a host of other outcomes still remains reasonable and correct. This just takes a lot of time and patience on both the beta-testers and the coder.

I wonder how different the game was when it was released back in 2009.

Back then, only 200 fighters on CAP would engage the enemy. There were some very large raids later on.

You should look up the thread on the updates, changes, and then read them. But you don't like reading, do you?

Nazcatraz wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2024 2:52 pm

PaxMondo wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2024 4:10 am My $0.02:

I would agree it is partly that many of the original devs have moved on. But, actually I feel the biggest part is simply that as the game has evolved with the input of the players, its complexity has increased manifold. The interrelations of so many of the variables has increased. Thus, testing when a variable has been adjusted to improve (or correct) one outcome, must also be tested to ensure that a host of other outcomes still remains reasonable and correct. This just takes a lot of time and patience on both the beta-testers and the coder.

I wonder how different the game was when it was released back in 2009.

It changed a lot over the years and has become a sort of 50-50 split between database/scenario changes that added much more complexity when it comes to units and ships (see the DABigBabes mod for an example) and additions and corrections to the .exe which also added complexity (look at the patch notes for the 26a beta and others).

In the early days I was very much in favor of adding more and more detail when it came to ships and units, but (just my opinion people!) now I wonder if it didn't go too far and clog up the system. Not every schooner, YTB, or PC type ship has to be included IMHO, nor do LCU's down to the company level in a lot of cases. To each his own though, but sometimes I wonder if the original stock design ideas (minus the air combat issues) weren't better. For a lot of people this is heresy I guess, and you have my apology for saying this.

The AI was never great even though AndyMac did some heroic work with different scripts. Many modded databases proved to be just too big and complex for the AI to use anyway.

Back in pre-historic days I played SPI's monster "War in the Pacific" (1976?) boardgame which was HUGE. Head-to-head my opponent and I made it to July 1942 before time and space requirements ended things. Even something as big as that had to make design compromises (number of days per turn, oceanic supply pipelines instead of every merchant/cargo ship being accounted for, destroyer and smaller warships in squadron/division sized units instead of being modeled individually, etc.). Those compromises were fine with me, and then PCs came along which reduced production costs comparing paper to computer games.

What I'm trying to say is that I've got the feeling that WiTP-AE has grown too big now for any one person or small group of people to correct and update properly anymore. I still love this game warts and all, and respect all the research and effort put into it over the years.

As RJ recommends, take some time out to at least skim the forums and AAR's from the earliest up till now and you'll get a good picture of how things have evolved. There's a ton of achived material but you won't have to read every word.

One more file was wrong, the "jump map". Fixing that. Last time we had 3 wrong files, this time we had 1 wrong file. Getting closer and closer.

jwilkerson wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2024 10:11 pm One more file was wrong, the "jump map". Fixing that. Last time we had 3 wrong files, this time we had 1 wrong file. Getting closer and closer.

I would make a bet that everyone who is complaining about how long this is taking would have raised holy hell if the update would have been released with that error.

I am actually more excited about us breaking million posts on this AE forum in future.

That might be some sort of record on wargaming forum.

Oh...and the patch...it'll come someday...

As far as I know the AI does not send pilots to the group reserve, only you can do that???

It tends to happens when you have 'Allow auto replacement' on for pilots or when for scheduled replacements arrive, those returning from injury or when you request a veteran.