Matrix Games Forums

Perhaps I should come out and say.... ASL wasn't that big of a deal to me. I mean, it wasn't ground breaking and it was nothing innovative. Sure, it had all the rules goin for it - which would give it more... well, rules. But it just basically went along with the norm at the time in wargaming. Don't get me wrong, I like the anal retentive numbers, but it didn't really help the immersion all that much.

Maybe I'm just a larger scale wargamer. Battalions must be my speed.

Speaking of complexity, anyone remember any of the Panzer series of games by Yaquinto publications?

THAT is what I call complex!... but not in a good way.

Zyrhe wrote:I've still got my copy of Strategic Publications, Inc.'s 1976 publication of War in Europe. Anyone remember that one? For the campaign game it has 8 or 9 large maps that it would require 2 4x8 sheets of plywood in order to lay them all out. If memory serves, the game has over 2,000 counters and 4 separate rule books.

I was never actually able to find anyone else willing to take the time to learn how to play it, so it remains a virgin.

It is possible that there exists a more complex simulation than that?

Zyrhe

I played that game at least 3 time with about 5-6 other friends. Set up the game in my garage on saw horses supporting the plywood table and covered the maps with 1/4" plexiglass. Amazing game, however SPI's "War in the Pacific", in my opinion was more complex. It was approximately the same sized as WIE encompasing the entire Pacific Ocean and Asia. Couldn't get anyone to play since my regular gamer friends who loved WIE couldn't line up their divisions and calculate overrun odds. WIP was extremly fluid and had a basic hidden movement rules that kept everyone guessing where your carriers were.

SPI was a great company and their board games were well designed and researched.

The most complicated game I've owned was probably 'Raiders of the North', a naval game of WW II in the North Atlantic. The manual was larger than most towns' phonebooks. I never did find anyone willing to play it against. Major example of accuracy at the expense of playability.

Eric Maietta

I guess everybody has a different definition of complex. For my money, the most complex game ever was SPI's AirWar.

Sure, War in the Pacific and others had more stuff to deal with, but they were covering entire wars, while a game of AirWar was lucky if it managed to model 2 minutes of flight!

CZ

Les the Sarge 9-1 wrote:I have Longest Day, a stunning 5.5 x 5' mounted map game. Again with the 10k counters supply and largely all each counter being unique as well (except for a small sum of misc counters).
But the game is really a straightforward design rules wise. I actually consider it one of my easier to learn wargames.

I would kill to have The Longest Day. I was just getting up my nerve to spend the $100 or whatever it cost when my local shop sold the last one. Then AH went out of business and I was never able to find it again.

Actually I wouldn't buy it today. Just remains the pinnacle of monster games that AH published.

But when it comes to just an issue of complexity and not a measure of the size of the map or the density of the counters, I think the hands down winner has to be Advanced Third Reich. With the Research manual from Rising Sun thrown in, it easily masters the competition.
World in Flames is a very close second place though and can claim to be the only global contender of merit.

Yeah, Advanced Third Reich requires you to read the rule, read another rule, and re-read the first rule trying to understand what they might be meaning to say. The rules seemed to cover all circumstances EXCEPT that one you happened to encounter just then. And my last game of it I was doing the impossible as Germany -- was just about to conquer Spain for 30 more BRPs when ... like a complete idiot I left a port (Wilhelmshaven?) unguarded and my opponent invaded with armor and in one turn TOOK Berlin and was able to hold it. ARGH!

Monster games I have played:

Terrible Swift Sword (still the best, IMHO)
Bloody April (Shiloh -- a real nightmare in terms of logistics and you
have a zillion green troops as the Confederate)
La Bataille de la Moskowa (GDW) -- another great, great game.
Wellington's Victory (SPI) -- this game's manual even said it wasn't a game at all but a simulation. Never found an opponent, and it remains one of the most difficult games I have ever played, both in terms of the rules and the necessity to use most of the maps together (4 I believe) for most scenarios, and rigid formation/facing rules. And the game seemed in the end to be decided by bloody skirmishers.

Ahhhh guys ... so nice to see fellow wargamers....

I played, solitaire about 4-5 full campaigns of War in Europe when I was younger...

It had rules that were not too complex, but had lots of them...

Superb Game, probably the best I still owned...

I had a badly used set, and was able to buy a new one for 50 $ canadian about 15 years ago..

I got War in the Pacific for 35 $ canadian..

But, I was on the preorder list for War in Europe just before SPI went bankrupt, and lost my $ 35 USD deposit (it was discounted from $ 50 USD)

The Most Complex Wargames were , in order, with pretty much no debate anong the 25 years expereince grognards, as:

Campaign in North Africa (SPI rated it a ... 10/10) The only one EVER to receive this rating.. [CINA for short)
Air War, rated a 9.7 if my mind is still good.

Everything else was just lower, and badly written games did not count as being complex...

BTW, I still have the errata, the errata gentlemen for CINA, ans it weighted in at 48 pages .... 48 pages of errata !

Finally, someone mentioned that DG (Decision Games) still sells War in Europe, a War in Europe Computer version of Aide de Camp II file.

Can someone help me, I wish to either get:

1- Computer Version of War in Europe (I don't think it exists)
OR, as more likely, the
2- Aide de Camp II computer helper version...

I need the link, and ye can reach me at Jeanmgauthier@hotmail.com

Pretty please ? I found nothing through google on it...

Finally, I just wanted to say that WiE is the best wargame I EVER played, as the strategic options were incredible, and the Production rules were the core fun of that game.

If you attacked Russia, you did it after conquering the Middle east, and came in through Turkey and the Caucasus... Even then Russia was a real b!@#h !

I managed to Seelion , once, once, England, and did not attack russia in that Game. I built fortifications down the whole of central europe, and had grabbed the Baltic States, sweden and switzerland. I was preparing to invade Russia in 1944 when I had to quit playing...

Memories my friends..... Ahhhhh

Let me know on the computer/adc Ii stuff about WiE

Thanks in advance
Jean
42-y-old, played since I was 12, when my parents bought me Blitzkrieg ina garage sale... What a mistake that was !

Take care everyone

FWIW, I wouldn't laundry list "the most" ,just the games I found to be pretty bloody complex. To me that means alot rules for rules sake that don't either provide insight into the battle/campaign/war being simulated, or simply an awkard game "system":
AirWar (a good example of how designers pretty much design what they want without listening to the "technical advisers". Knew some bro's who actually contributed to the game: they were ignored. And it showed)
ASL. A rulebook the size of a Las Vegas phonebook. Perfect game for those who put rules above tactics...don't get me started.