Page 3 of 9
RE: It's a disgrace
Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 3:45 am
by pasternakski
This is where it is, sports fans. WIF as a computer game had gone nowhere. The code that had been developed was haphazard, lacked direction to a final product, and was doomed to be another War in the Pacific, and maybe even worse, because it completely lacked an AI (and believe me, if you want to sell more than 500 games, you'd better have something at least resembling an AI).
WIF as a computer game is more than two years away from fruition, and it may be far more than that.
So sit down, order a Leinenkugel, ogle the waitresses, and say, "Gott in Himmel. Dieses ist nicht Munschen. Prosit! Ein Prosit!"
RE: It's a disgrace
Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 4:45 am
by David Heath
Hi Guys
CWiF was in development I think for seven years before Matrix took it over. Now I hope to take a lot less time but the truth is we are having major issues on how we can truly make a fair AI let alone a good one. This game is far beyond the 3rd Reich game published years ago and that took well over 5 years. Empires In Arms has taught us that converting board games to computer games may not really be the best idea. It has taken us one and a half years longer to complete EiA and we are still working at it. The bottom line is we will not do the project unless we as gamers feel its playable and can do it right.
Matrix likes to tell the customer how it is......... and in this case everyone better sit down and just keep on enjoying the table top version for the time being. This game is far from being ready. I plan to have a big sit down with Robert and the rest of the team at Origins and try to get a better handle on this game. Robert and I have already had a few long talks aboutt this we have not found an easy answer yet.
We promise to do it right before we do it fast.
David
Given a choice...
Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 5:51 am
by Greyshaft
ORIGINAL: macgregor
…in all but a small area the game was pretty tight.
You mean that the wrapped up non-AI demos that you got to test were pretty tight? Did you ever see any logic diagrams or entity relationships for the AI code? Was the AI even started when you got to play with the demos? The best software application in the world will go to heck in a handbasket if you try and push it beyond its design parameters and the original CwiF was not designed for an AI. “We’ll develop it later? ROFLMAO!!!”
You may consider the original CwiF as an interface of great beauty but I’d rather have a beautiful AI with a $2 interface rather than a $2 AI with a beautiful interface. IMHO the only professional approach is to write a complete specification first and then salvage any reusable code from the original CwiF only if it fits the new specification. For my money I’d be prepared for Matrix to start again with an empty code box as long as they get it right.
Marinacci's code
Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 7:07 am
by coregames
ORIGINAL: Greyshaft
I’d be prepared for Matrix to start again with an empty code box as long as they get it right.
Most likely, almost none of Chris Marinacci's actual original code will be used. The lessons learned from the challenges he faced, however, might be indispensable. As far as AI goes, his version had nothing resembling that implemented when it was abandoned. Matrix will be considered innovative in the extreme if MWiF's AI plays even passably well (assuming they don't radically alter the game).
RE: Marinacci's code
Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 2:25 pm
by macgregor
Let me help translate this. Matrix bought this marinacci demo. Which they don't plan on using. Thus, squelching any chance of it being released as a pbem game. Not because they didn't want it to compete with their releases(my ass) but because the infinite wisdom of matrix says that a game without an AI won't sell more than 500 copies. Matrix is screwing guys like me that just want to play the freaking game with their friends far away. Well you know what you can do with your freaking AI don't you? How much do you guys want for it? I'm serious. As long as you're going to hold the demo hostage, at least let us WiF players how much is the ransome. And please- ask me to buy a matrix product. I dare you. If you think i'm the only person in the world that realizes what matrix is doing to dedicated WiF players for the sake of an AI that anyone who has played the game will tell you is not only NOT part of the WiF experience -but a good ten years of programming away I will say confidently that you are indeed mistaken. Have a nice life, David.
Pasternaski has outlined to me 500 people that should never buy a Matrix product as long as they live. I have a list that's been posted for over 8 years now of players just waiting to play WiF pbem. I will inform each one of them individually ,if necesary, of what has become of their beloved game. Did ADG know you guys were going to do this? I don't think so.
RE: It's a disgrace
Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 2:56 pm
by wfzimmerman
I will say in an even-tempered way that this is pretty darned discouraging.
Let's touch up the Marinacci CWIF and release it ASAP.
ORIGINAL: David Heath
Hi Guys
CWiF was in development I think for seven years before Matrix took it over. Now I hope to take a lot less time but the truth is we are having major issues on how we can truly make a fair AI let alone a good one. This game is far beyond the 3rd Reich game published years ago and that took well over 5 years. Empires In Arms has taught us that converting board games to computer games may not really be the best idea. It has taken us one and a half years longer to complete EiA and we are still working at it. The bottom line is we will not do the project unless we as gamers feel its playable and can do it right.
Matrix likes to tell the customer how it is......... and in this case everyone better sit down and just keep on enjoying the table top version for the time being. This game is far from being ready. I plan to have a big sit down with Robert and the rest of the team at Origins and try to get a better handle on this game. Robert and I have already had a few long talks aboutt this we have not found an easy answer yet.
We promise to do it right before we do it fast.
David
RE: It's a disgrace
Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 3:11 pm
by Erik Rutins
Guys,
We are holding nothing hostage. The request for a pre-AI release is something we will consider and discuss with Rob at Origins.
Regards,
- Erik
RE: It's a disgrace
Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 5:04 pm
by Cheesehead
Empires In Arms has taught us that converting board games to computer games may not really be the best idea.
I've said this before on this site and I'll say it again: If matrix realizes that the problems with AI and PBEM are too great to overcome in producing an exact, computer version of WiF...create a whole new game based on WiF but not necessarily the same game. I would just like to see a massive, detailed, WWII grand strategy game that can be played PBEM. It should have the scale of WiF (or even larger) and it should approximate the 100 hours or so of play time to complete. It would be great if it incorporates many of the features of WiF but the designers shouldn't handcuff themselves to the boardgame, as it obviously appears this is greatly hampering development.
I understand MacGregor's frustration, especially when you have no opponents nearby, as was my case until recently. But most of the WiF purists that I have heard from have serious doubts about the plausibility of PBEM with MWiF. If it is heresy to design a computer game after WiF but not faithfully recreate it exactly as the boardgame, then call it something else.[:)]
RE: It's a disgrace
Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 6:10 pm
by macgregor
The crazy thing is that we could be playtesting the demo pbem right now -and instead of posting thoughts on some utopian game that doesn't exist, we could be posting concrete ideas on how to expedite the pbem process. For god's sake man - people are playing this game using these laborious virtual boardgame templates! Are you guys blind? Or do you you just dislike us? Seriously though, you are sticking it to us.
"Before this is over I only hope to get the chance to use you the way you've used him"
RE: It's a disgrace
Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 6:10 pm
by coregames
ORIGINAL: Cheesehead
Empires In Arms has taught us that converting board games to computer games may not really be the best idea.
I've said this before on this site and I'll say it again: If matrix realizes that the problems with AI and PBEM are too great to overcome in producing an exact, computer version of WiF...create a whole new game based on WiF but not necessarily the same game. I would just like to see a massive, detailed, WWII grand strategy game that can be played PBEM. It should have the scale of WiF (or even larger) and it should approximate the 100 hours or so of play time to complete. It would be great if it incorporates many of the features of WiF but the designers shouldn't handcuff themselves to the boardgame, as it obviously appears this is greatly hampering development.
I understand MacGregor's frustration, especially when you have no opponents nearby, as was my case until recently. But most of the WiF purists that I have heard from have serious doubts about the plausibility of PBEM with MWiF. If it is heresy to design a computer game after WiF but not faithfully recreate it exactly as the boardgame, then call it something else.[:)]
I believe that purism is not the only issue here. WiF has evolved through 20 years of extensive playtesting by thousands of people worldwide, and numerous revisions, to get to the point it's at now. Perhaps Matrix could start essentially from scratch and produce a game that fulfills your wishes, but to match WiF's current quality it might require another 20 years of playtesting and revision to get back to the level WiF is at
today. By departing on a tangent in the name of PBEM, Matrix may well find itself longing for the headaches of developing EiA; don't discard 20 years of the game's evolution please. Perhaps there is a way to deliver PBEM, through the AI, scripting for the non-phasing side, or an
optional streamlined mode.
AI is another subject entirely, one I know must be causing Robert Crandall and company fits. It sounds like they may be considering a pre-AI release; I just hope it
is WiF, and not simply based on it.
RE: It's a disgrace
Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 6:36 pm
by David Heath
Hi Macgregor
We are not holding anything hostage... please. We have talked with both Chris and ADG and they wanted both AI and a more streamed lined interface. Without all shouting of if there are truly enough people really just looking for PBEM then this could be the happy solution for everyone.
Macgregor instead of attacking us lets work together and see if we can agree on a solution.
RE: It's a disgrace
Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 6:41 pm
by macgregor
Paa-leeez !(2 words) We're not starting from scratch here. Did you(coregames) play the demo? -and did you not feel that it kept with the quality that was WiF? There's only one reason I can think of why someone would not like the Marinacci demo -and that's because they don't like WiF! All I can say in response then is PAA LEEZ HAND IT OVER TO SOMEONE WHO DOES!!
(In reply to David) I'm not a malicious person. I'm sensitive -and astute. And I know right from wrong - and what you guys are doing is wrong! If Chris was tasked with developing an AI then shame on Harry ( or whoever)for linking it's success to an AI though I think ADG has paid the price for the attempt .Since when did AI become part of the WiF experience anyway? I'm getting the feeling that people controlling this project have very little experience actually playing it.
RE: It's a disgrace
Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 6:47 pm
by wfzimmerman
I would be perfectly happy with a PBEM version with cosmetic fixes to the interface and am willing to go on the record as willing to pay up front for it. AI can be phase II.
ORIGINAL: David Heath
Hi Macgregor
We are not holding anything hostage... please. We have talked with both Chris and ADG and they wanted both AI and a more streamed lined interface. Without all shouting of if there are truly enough people really just looking for PBEM then this could be the happy solution for everyone.
Macgregor instead of attacking us lets work together and see if we can agree on a solution.
RE: It's a disgrace
Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 7:03 pm
by Cheesehead
Perhaps Matrix could start essentially from scratch and produce a game that fulfills your wishes, but to match WiF's current quality it might require another 20 years of playtesting and revision to get back to the level WiF is at today. By departing on a tangent in the name of PBEM, Matrix may well find itself longing for the headaches of developing EiA; don't discard 20 years of the game's evolution please. Perhaps there is a way to deliver PBEM, through the AI, scripting for the non-phasing side, or an optional streamlined mode.
Do you really want to wait another 20, or even 10 years for Computer WiF? I would much rather see the company throw up its hands, admit "can't be done" and move on rather than keep stumbling along until I'm too old to care.
Regarding Macgregors point on the Marinacci demo, I've never even seen it so I wouldn't want to comment on that...but please, Macgregor, cool it with the anger...it's been months since we've heard anything from the folks at Matrix and I do look forward to their updates...verbally abusing them isn't going to contibute to anything other then sending them back into silence.
RE: It's a disgrace
Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 7:15 pm
by macgregor
Well, I can't lie. I am angry. I could stop posting. I'm sure Erik could lock me out(I admire that he hasn't). I don't want to be ridiculed for giving a damn(that's for sure).
I think it's clear I'm not out to get Matrix. Though after a year I only hope the converse is also true. Releasing Wif pre AI(I said 'pre' so hold your fire) will not only make me and every other established WiF player happy, but make Matrix a good deal of money. Perhaps even enough to pay for the development of an AI(I said perhaps-that's one hell of alot of code). I don't think I'm asking the world of Matrix except to do what I feel is in it's own best interest. If I had never seen how smooth and true to the boardgame the demo was, I suppose I'd be in the same boat as, say, coregames. But I have seen the demo -and the demo is really good.
RE: Marinacci's code
Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 8:13 pm
by Vyshka
ORIGINAL: macgregor
Let me help translate this. Matrix bought this marinacci demo. Which they don't plan on using. Thus, squelching any chance of it being released as a pbem game. Not because they didn't want it to compete with their releases(my ass) but because the infinite wisdom of matrix says that a game without an AI won't sell more than 500 copies. Matrix is screwing guys like me that just want to play the freaking game with their friends far away. Well you know what you can do with your freaking AI don't you? How much do you guys want for it? I'm serious. As long as you're going to hold the demo hostage, at least let us WiF players how much is the ransome. And please- ask me to buy a matrix product. I dare you. If you think i'm the only person in the world that realizes what matrix is doing to dedicated WiF players for the sake of an AI that anyone who has played the game will tell you is not only NOT part of the WiF experience -but a good ten years of programming away I will say confidently that you are indeed mistaken. Have a nice life, David.
Pasternaski has outlined to me 500 people that should never buy a Matrix product as long as they live. I have a list that's been posted for over 8 years now of players just waiting to play WiF pbem. I will inform each one of them individually ,if necesary, of what has become of their beloved game. Did ADG know you guys were going to do this? I don't think so.
Why not use Cyberboard or Aide De Camp. Better yet use the demo that was at one time released by ADG and quit whining. If ADG didn't want
anything further done with what they already had they would have released it.
RE: Marinacci's code
Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 8:36 pm
by macgregor
ORIGINAL: Vyshka
ORIGINAL: macgregor
Let me help translate this. Matrix bought this marinacci demo. Which they don't plan on using. Thus, squelching any chance of it being released as a pbem game. Not because they didn't want it to compete with their releases(my ass) but because the infinite wisdom of matrix says that a game without an AI won't sell more than 500 copies. Matrix is screwing guys like me that just want to play the freaking game with their friends far away. Well you know what you can do with your freaking AI don't you? How much do you guys want for it? I'm serious. As long as you're going to hold the demo hostage, at least let us WiF players how much is the ransome. And please- ask me to buy a matrix product. I dare you. If you think i'm the only person in the world that realizes what matrix is doing to dedicated WiF players for the sake of an AI that anyone who has played the game will tell you is not only NOT part of the WiF experience -but a good ten years of programming away I will say confidently that you are indeed mistaken. Have a nice life, David.
Pasternaski has outlined to me 500 people that should never buy a Matrix product as long as they live. I have a list that's been posted for over 8 years now of players just waiting to play WiF pbem. I will inform each one of them individually ,if necesary, of what has become of their beloved game. Did ADG know you guys were going to do this? I don't think so.
Why not use Cyberboard or Aide De Camp. Better yet use the demo that was at one time released by ADG and quit whining. If ADG didn't want
anything further done with what they already had they would have released it.
Can't play pbem with the demo. Though perhaps you're right about the other options -laborious and archaic as they might be. If you think I'm whining then I have indeed reached the point of being ridiculed for giving a damn -and shall stop. After this...
Being part Italian, your mentioning of my whining brought back a documentary i was watching on Stalingrad. A German officer exhorted angrily "...the Italians were whining!" Perhaps he would've been better off listening to the 100 or so thousand Soviets that were surrounding his ass. This world owes it's technology, it's freedom of thought,quality of life and work,and democracy(if your lucky enough to have one) to the whiners and complainers that came before us. So while I may not owe you, Mr. Vyshka a 'your welcome' I do at least owe you a 'thank you'.
RE: Marinacci's code
Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 12:25 am
by Vyshka
If it didnt have pbem capability, what good would it do to have Matrix release it?
Or has it progressed beyond the stage of where it was when it was released by ADG?
sorry whining was probably a little harsh, back is killing me and not a lot of sleep the
last couple of days.
RE: Marinacci's code
Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 2:07 am
by Grotius
The request for a pre-AI release is something we will consider and discuss with Rob at Origins.
That's good to hear, Erik. Thanks for posting.
RE: Marinacci's code
Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 5:00 am
by Mziln
The request for a pre-AI release is something we will consider and discuss with Rob at Origins.
Sounds like a good plan. Put down my name for a pre-AI release! [:)]
Vyshka:
Back pains and no sleep [:(]
You are not alone. I just had a session with my back cracker today.