Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: G.Boggon

To be fair, is it right to find fault in the game if some one can find a Bulldozer that is not included? The numbers mentioned could easily have been captured civilian machines there must have been plenty in the colonial infrastructure

I insist that the bulldozers be included in the next patch [;)]

What total BS, it doesn't matter if the bulldozer is Giant or Small, the total lack of engineering vehicles for Japanese engineering units is ridiculous. Makes me wonder how all those defenses on Iwo Jima and Tarawa were built. No one is saying they have the equipment that the USA had but they had a few. Anyone besides Allied Fanboys who think Japan was still in stone age have any real data on their TOE for their engineering units???

I think people are retroarguing this point on the basis of the speed (too fast or too slow) with which they perceive engineering units to work. It does, however, speak volumes that with TWO constructoin units at Tarawa with 1600 non-army civilian laborers there were TWO rather smallish Japanese bulldozers on the entire island when it was captured.

And yeah, in moving earth, size matters. ALOT. You think a D8 is cool -- a D10 could crush one of those little Japanese garden mower type bulldozers under one tread.

It makes more sense with the engineer=squards explanation..

A couple of friends and I always thought in PacWar though that raw human power should count for something. I grew up around old-school coal miners. Those men could WORK...[&o]

We (the PacWar guys) always thought that the Chinese should be able to make airstrips in no time flat.. You get 50k people out there with a basket and turn 'em loose [:)]

You get 50k people out there with a basket

That is sort of the point. There is work that requires so much force applied that having a lot more hands doesn't help nearly as much as one huge machine. Loading fighters on a transport. A whole lot of people pulling on ropes just can't do it as fast as a crane.

Digging in dirt you can do. Moving big rocks is something else qualitatively.

"Fire in the Sky" (Bergeraud) has a section on the problems the IJ had with base building due to lack of heavy equipment.

once again...i am no expert...but i watched in a matter of weeks, a bulldozer and a earthmover totally flatten a hill prob 75 meters high x 600 meters x 300 meters. i don't think that any realistic amount of manual laber can come close to that. on another hand...i worked at a sandpit in Georgia for a summer....it took me about 30-45 min to shovel a ton of sand....a decent dozer can move a ton of hard dirt like it was candy.

I have to go with the explanation that it is really just a abstract thing that the game uses

It should be noted that one reason why fortifications were lacking in the Pacific just before the war was an agreement to not build in the Central Pacific - part of them Naval treaties.

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Also, no doubt you all know how much the Japanese focused on Float Planes - as they don't need no freakin' runways.

The Japanese certainly lacked much civilian industrialization - they spent like one third of the GDP on the military, and that military was focused heavily on teeth, and very little on the tail.

They did not make cars, and they did not make appliances, and had just managed to get into modern airframes and engines when the war started.

The US, suffering under the depression, had the TVA, and a long history of consumer based heavy industry.

Despite the Japanese having some equipment, I think the overall effect is about right - the Japanese simply did not have the industrial base to produce heavy construction equipment.

AMOF, I think the bulldozer I posted in that postcard is a small Caterpillar dozer - copied, or looted.

The roller - who knows wher they got it - but I doubt the Colonial Occupiers had it out there - the region was not developed at all.

The Japanese knew the significance of Lunga, and they spent themselves on it, so it stands to reason they sent a bunch of equipment there.

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And what of steel? To make construction equipment, you need steel, and Japan never had enough, and most of it was sent into warships.

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Overall, it works, the lack of equipment, that is. If Iwant a base built up fast, I just pile up Engineers at it.

In no way do I think you should even come close to enjoying the industrial cornucopia of the Americans.

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But, hey, give them about 100 pcs of equipment for the whole war, and that would be about right.

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Of course, why can't we CAPTURE Armaments and Equipment?

For example, some of Singapores Shore batteries were relocated - one 8 inch gun made it to Wake, IIRC.

And famously, the Marines at Lunga made an Ad Hoc CB unit with the captured Japanese Equipment.

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An overriding problem the Japanese have in the whole war, not just in base construction but in aircraft production, ship repair and almost everything else is that they are not "just like the US industry/economy only with a smaller GDP". They have a big infrastructure problem. Yes, they can build superb ships and yes, the zero is brilliantly conceived aircraft but they don't have that huge "US Steel, Chicago South Works" sort of massive heavy industry.

Look at the planes. They stress using non-strategic materials in clever ways and can be made in smallish "factories" that, I get the impression, are more like Morris Garages or some local auto-shop than like a huge assembly line stretching across acres and acres, with power equipment to move everything on and off the assembly line. The ability of the latter to put on a huge surge of production or construction is way beyond the means of a less mechanized/industrialized economy to build ships or pave acres and acres of Pacific atolls.

They don't have the "brute force/heavy duty stamping machine/drill holes in steel plates in stacks of 50" sort of industry the US had. They are running the whole war on a shoe string.

^^^Wilhammer - off topic, but where do you live? - I'm located in Raleigh....

it took me about 30-45 min to shovel a ton of sand.

Even that is not the problem as I see it.

One guy can move 10 tons of sand in an 8 hour day (by your schedule).
So 100 guys can move 10 tons of sand in about 10 minutes. (the arithmetic isn't the point. Stay with me on this)
And a bulldozer can move 10 tons of sand in ten minutes.

BUT

The bulldozer can move 10 ton boulder in 10 minutes.
The 100 people can't move a 10 ton boulder at all.

tu shea....(or however you spell it)

Guys, as you sure the Japanese dont get construction vehicles at some point?

I ask becuase they are in the Japanese construction list and in the smaller scenario I am playing at the moment I actually have a few dozen built. Whats the deal with that [&:]?

Dawg

...touche...

...touche...

Brad Hunter is obviously Free French, from Noumea[:)]

^^^Off topic.

Brad-

I live just north of Greensboro - I work at NCA&T, right next to Highway 29.

I lived in Raleigh from 1991 until 1995.

Ever visit Reader's Corner near NCSU? Favorite book store of all time - visit the military history section - I got lucky there about two years ago and got a bunch of Naval Institute Books for a great price - mostly on the Pacific War, including that HUGE book on Japanese Cruisers.

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

...touche...

thanks [:)]

I bought this up during development with quotes from the US Army Official history... but it was ignored (and the thread appears to have gone).

The Japanese appeared to have used light railways (2ft) based on WW1 French/German "Feldbahn" on a lot of strips as well.

The feeling I get is that the Japanese strip building slowness was partially:

a lack of appropriate supplies,

b lack of direction to get the job done (feeling the war was already over),

c priorities all screwed up.

For an example of the later while the strip at Henderson was not yet complete they had built the facilities to service the torpedos of the airctraft they planned to operate there. This is actually a sign of planned overengineering.

Rabaul is also an example where point b comes into play... once the priority was applied things happened quickly.


This laissez faire attitude is a bit suprising in hindsight, but at the time they thought they had already won.

Cheers

Rob

ORIGINAL: jnier

ORIGINAL: G.Boggon

To be fair, is it right to find fault in the game if some one can find a Bulldozer that is not included? The numbers mentioned could easily have been captured civilian machines there must have been plenty in the colonial infrastructure

I insist that the bulldozers be included in the next patch [;)]

Well that just about does it. About the only things left are cook and latrine fanboys.[:D]

One guy can move 10 tons of sand in an 8 hour day (by your schedule).
So 100 guys can move 10 tons of sand in about 10 minutes. (the arithmetic isn't the point. Stay with me on this)
And a bulldozer can move 10 tons of sand in ten minutes.

BUT

The bulldozer can move 10 ton boulder in 10 minutes.
The 100 people can't move a 10 ton boulder at all.

I agree with your sentiments and your "BUT" and yet.... a bulldozer can move ten tons of sand in the time it took me to read your message and type this response.

a bulldozer can move ten tons of sand in the time it took me to read your message and type this response

So we can all assume you are a diplomate of the Hunt & Peck School of Typing and Office Practice?[:)]