Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

ORIGINAL: berto

Not to belittle the excellent Matrix/2by3 support, but there is at least one other gaming company that equals or betters them in the after-release support department.

Europa Universalis II was released in 2001. (EUII is a simulation of European/world history from 1419 through 1820.) The game's developer, Strategy First, has released eight major patches...

Well, as others said too, it's not Strategy First that is giving the support. Actually it's not even Paradox Entertainment...but the Leading/Head Programmer Johan who makes those Beta Patches on his spare time, for free. And there is lot of enthusiastic players giving input and making excellent mods to game..like my favourite...AGCEEP.

Cheers,

M.S.

Yes, oops, my mistake. Paradox is the developer, and EUII is Johan's Labor of Love.

I haven't purchased WITP yet (shame on me, but I simply don't have the time to play it), so I don't know if what I am about to say applies to that game. But for games of WITP's (and EUII's) complexity and scope, it is imperative that they be open source in this sense: having plain-text data and logic files intelligible to non-programmers. Make the game scriptable, especially the AI, and throw in scenario, OOB, and map editors, too. That way, the game community can fix problems itself and not be dependent on developer/publisher support continuing indefinitely.

In other words, sell a game kit, not just a "finished" game. Maybe sell two versions, the game only at a lower price, and the game plus developer's kit at a higher price.

As I understand it, Gary Grigsby's World at War will be open, fixable, and moddable. How does the GGWAW implementation differ from WITP's?

Well, the problem with a "game kit", as good an idea as it is, it generally must be incorporated into the design from the beginning.

For example, Neverwinter Nights. It's based on the Baldur's Gate engine(s). But they also -planned- on open sourcing it from the start. So the NwN engine evolved into a very different beast than the orginal BG engine. And by the time the original NwN was released, the NwN engine was -very- different than the BG engine from which it had it's start. Furthermore, and refit of the BG engine, to try to incorporate the innovations and scripting of NwN would have been a drastic undertaking. (What actually happened, was players using the NwN engine to rewrite the BG series as their own mods).

So the short is, I seriously doubt that WitP has planned as having such of "game kit", like the AI scripter of NwN. WitP certainly has it's DB editor, but that's just changing/adding figures in a DB, it's not actually altering the functions of the code. When/if they offer open source for WitP, there will surely be some utilities, but (as a dev myself), don't plan on a lot of "friendliness" from the code. Again, usually a friendly AI/code editor requires planning for it in the initial stages, and considering that it has never been mentioned that WitP has one (even for the devs), I doubt it exists.

-F-

"Plain text data and logic files". Only pre-game, via the editor, for WitP. Be very aware that 2By3 have encrypted the save game files, so you won't be able to 'see under the hood' using those.

Map editor: there's a thread in here somewhere about someone writing a modified map - both the artwork and, more importantly, the underlying datafile. Look for Andrew Brown, "Map Mod Information".

Don't hold your breath for other items on your wish list.

DON'T let any of this stop you getting the game though - for me, even with flaws and annoyances considered, it's the best Strategic/Operational game set in the Pacific/WW2 I have ever played, be it boardgame or computer game.

Steve.

As to your comments about EU2, yea, fine, sure, you mean after I BOUGHT the EU patch called EU2? [8|]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

As to your comments about EU2, yea, fine, sure, you mean after I BOUGHT the EU patch called EU2? [8|]

Oooh - do I detect a trace of bitterness? [:D]

Truth of the matters is, the two great blessings in the life of any wargamer are Matrix and Paradox. Depending on which day of the week you ask me, either WitP or HOI2 is the greatest wargame ever developed.

Joel

It's very sad to hear there is no future for UV/Witp type games.
I only own two Matrix products (UV and Witp) and I think Matrix is given up on Witp way to soon.

I still have that $50 dollar coffee coaster labeled Europa Universalis. I don't need it because I DID buy the $50 patch called EU II. Two years later it even worked (and I still play it)

ORIGINAL: Chaplain

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

As to your comments about EU2, yea, fine, sure, you mean after I BOUGHT the EU patch called EU2? [8|]

Truth of the matters is, the two great blessings in the life of any wargamer are Matrix and Paradox. Depending on which day of the week you ask me, either WitP or HOI2 is the greatest wargame ever developed.

But by the time I buy HOI2, I will have paid $20 more than WitP (plus shipping and handling[:)])

And yes I do have a companion coffee coaster labeled HOI[:D]

I love Hearts of Iron.... well, only with the Stony Road Historical mod. What other game can you have German Panzers roll through Australia?

Once time, the game glitched (gasp), and on September 1st, the USSR declared war on Germany AND Poland. So, the Axis (me) and the Allies formed an alliance, and so you saw French Char B1s and British A13s using the Autoban on the way to the USSR, while German PzIVs went through cheering Polish villages on the way to defeat the Soviets. That was one of the funnest games of it I ever played.

I gotta give, all programs have bugs.

Even Pacman had an infamous bug.

Do you guys know what was that bug? You had to work really hard to see it...

F.

Oooh - do I detect a trace of bitterness?

Nope, no bitterness, but they did loose me as a customer ... i very much doubt that HoI2 will ever make it into my shopping cart as it seems to be the way they want to run their shop.

I understand that bugs happen very well. I do not lay blame for bugs on the developer. To do so is silly.

It is the publisher that forces the developer to cut the threads and stop offering fixes.

It's just not the way to retain a loyal customer base in my eyes.

The fact that the poor dev is supporting EU2 under the table tells the story better then I can. Why should he be doing it under the table? [:D]

ORIGINAL: fbastos

I gotta give, all programs have bugs.

Even Pacman had an infamous bug.

Do you guys know what was that bug? You had to work really hard to see it...

F.

You mean this one?

Pac Man Cheats

As a fellow developer I can only agree with Joel.

In any program, any new feature after a certain point of complexity is not likely to introduce bugs, it will SURELY do so.
The complexity and size of this game is truly amazing, it is a major achievement that it works at all.
I hope we will see some patches that tweak and fix things, because frankly, this is about the ONLY game that I have interest in. This is THE strategy game. No other game allows you to have strategic freedom of this magnitude.

Did you know, Mr.Frag, that Paradox is no longer using Strategy First as their distributor?

Did you know, Mr.Frag, that Paradox is no longer using Strategy First as their distributor?

Yep, I know ... we'll see how their forum reads with HoI2 comes out ...

BTW, welcome back. How did the job go?

ORIGINAL: BlackVoid

As a fellow developer I can only agree with Joel.

"Fellows" with professional integrity ordinarily allow their "fellows" to identify them as such.

ORIGINAL: sprior

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

ready to fire a full salvo of duds, baby!!!

I bet you say that to all the girls!

Usually say "Ooops, sorry!"[;)]

ORIGINAL: pad152

Joel

It's very sad to hear there is no future for UV/Witp type games.
I only own two Matrix products (UV and Witp) and I think Matrix is given up on Witp way to soon.

I don't think he ment that these types of games are dead just the engine used to create them.

Are we hinting at a new and improved robust type game engine in the future.[&o]