Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Hong Kong seems to fall too early and too easily in most games. It's rare to see it last past the first couple of days. I've tried adjusting the planning of the Hong Kong Garrison (to 75 planning for Hong Kong) but it didn't seem to help.

Ideally Hong Kong should hold out for 1-2 weeks (historically it fell on Dec 25th, 17 days). I was thinking about tinkering with the fortification level first. Ideas, thoughts, condemnations???

Oh, Andrew, I'd vote for changing the name of the second Hyderabad to "Malir" - possible confusion with two identically named locations. All in all I think the new map is working WONDERFULLY!

Also, I was thinking about "stealing" some of the US merchantmen that start the game spread all over the Pacific and move them to the Canal. Perhaps a dozen ships - taken from locations that have a large number. Thoughts??

And lastly - how's it going with the Alpha??

Don

A possible idea is to put Allied troops in Canton hex with forts to simulate the land part of HK. Problem is that if they hold more than two days, Chinese will join them, coming from the other side of Canton. Not a good idea.

Increasing fort may work. Also the island may be modelized as an atoll...

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Hong Kong seems to fall too early and too easily in most games. It's rare to see it last past the first couple of days. I've tried adjusting the planning of the Hong Kong Garrison (to 75 planning for Hong Kong) but it didn't seem to help.

Ideally Hong Kong should hold out for 1-2 weeks (historically it fell on Dec 25th, 17 days). I was thinking about tinkering with the fortification level first. Ideas, thoughts, condemnations???

Oh, Andrew, I'd vote for changing the name of the second Hyderabad to "Malir" - possible confusion with two identically named locations. All in all I think the new map is working WONDERFULLY!

Also, I was thinking about "stealing" some of the US merchantmen that start the game spread all over the Pacific and move them to the Canal. Perhaps a dozen ships - taken from locations that have a large number. Thoughts??

And lastly - how's it going with the Alpha??

Don

A possible idea is to put Allied troops in Canton hex with forts to simulate the land part of HK. Problem is that if they hold more than two days, Chinese will join them, coming from the other side of Canton. Not a good idea.

Increasing fort may work. Also the island may be modelized as an atoll...

I'm all for putting an Allied detatchment in Canton (Kowloon).[;)]

Question. Are we ahistorically changing units to create historic results, or are these newly added units historically accurate? I don't know enough about LCU OOBs to QA these ideas, just playing devil's advocate.

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Question. Are we ahistorically changing units to create historic results, or are these newly added units historically accurate? I don't know enough about LCU OOBs to QA these ideas, just playing devil's advocate.

I think the total allied garrison is accurate - perhaps even a little generous. There's just no basis for adding any more troops. I don't know exactly why the game mechanics seem to always allow Hong Kong to fall so quickly.

We might try splitting the garrison in two components but leaving both in Hong Kong (as opposed to moving some to Canton as suggested) - perhaps having two units will cause the attackers to defeat them one by one. Or, we could up the fortification level to represent the difficulty of assaulting Hong Kong Island itself. Classing it as an atoll might also work.

I think I'll play around a little with this and see what happens. As always, suggestions welcome.

Don

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Question. Are we ahistorically changing units to create historic results, or are these newly added units historically accurate? I don't know enough about LCU OOBs to QA these ideas, just playing devil's advocate.

I think the total allied garrison is accurate - perhaps even a little generous. There's just no basis for adding any more troops. I don't know exactly why the game mechanics seem to always allow Hong Kong to fall so quickly.

We might try splitting the garrison in two components but leaving both in Hong Kong (as opposed to moving some to Canton as suggested) - perhaps having two units will cause the attackers to defeat them one by one. Or, we could up the fortification level to represent the difficulty of assaulting Hong Kong Island itself. Classing it as an atoll might also work.

I think I'll play around a little with this and see what happens. As always, suggestions welcome.

Don

I do not agree with placing Allied units in Canton. They should be in HK only, especiall at this map scale.

• How many people have playtested the mod to the point where HK falls?
• How many days did it take, and how does that compare to your experience of the original scenarios and map?
• I have added a river between HK and Canton - did that make a difference?
• What difference will it make after the next patch, which I think includes a change to river movement and combat?
• Is HK attacked with more Japanese troops than attacked it in reality?

I ask these questions because I have so far been too busy to playtest the mod myself - sorry.

My opinion is IF HK needs adjusting somehow, then I would start by increasing the fort level.

I do not agree with placing Allied units in Canton. They should be in HK only, especiall at this map scale.



How many people have playtested the mod to the point where HK falls?

How many days did it take, and how does that compare to your experience of the original scenarios and map?

I have added a river between HK and Canton - did that make a difference?

What difference will it make after the next patch, which I think includes a change to river movement and combat?

Is HK attacked with more Japanese troops than attacked it in reality?



I ask these questions because I have so far been too busy to playtest the mod myself - sorry.

My opinion is IF HK needs adjusting somehow, then I would start by increasing the fort level.

I agree on placing units only in Hong Kong. I've been finding that Hong Kong will fall within 2-3 days. I have tried both increasing the Fort level (all the way to 9) and splitting the Kowloon Brigade into a separate unit (still based in Hong Kong). Doesn't seem to have any affect - Hong Kong always falls on the 9th or 10th. I seem to recall that Hong Kong tended to fall early in stock "scenario 15" games but I'm not sure as I have not played Scenario 15 in a while - perhaps even a while and a half.

I believe that both the Allied Garrison and Japanese attacking force are reasonable accurate. With Fort levels at maximum the only remaining non-map changes are moral and perhaps upping the Japanese disabled percentage.

I'll keep experimenting - it does bother me the way it is.

Don

allied troops generally surrender when 2:1 odds are achieved. if allied troops fought on like Japanese troops do, then Hong Kong wouldn't fall as fast. Maybe the base would fall, but the troops would fight on.

I say don't add any troops. I'd leave it as is, or possibly increase the fort level. But, it's a quick side adventure for two Jap divisions. I think making it too much tougher would put an undue burden on the starting position for Japan in China.

How many people have playtested the mod to the point where HK falls?

I have. It fell on the exact same day it was supposed to. This was a first for me.

And lastly - how's it going with the Alpha??

Even better than I expected . . . and I had pretty high hopes. I mean, this is a micromanagement game. The ability to send 400 tons of supplies to Manila on tiny mercs is absolutely perfect. I'm becoming quite fond of the mini AKs.

This is also my first time with Andrew's map. I love it.

What!?! He said, incredulously. How can my results be so consistently different? (Sounds of consternation, followed by brief digression into vocabulary enhancements due to naval service). I think I’ll just put this whole mess aside and come back to it later!

In playing Lemurs mod, I upped the fort level to 9 and gave the unit 100 prep points and I think I lasted 4 days IIRC.

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Question. Are we ahistorically changing units to create historic results, or are these newly added units historically accurate? I don't know enough about LCU OOBs to QA these ideas, just playing devil's advocate.

I think the total allied garrison is accurate - perhaps even a little generous. There's just no basis for adding any more troops. I don't know exactly why the game mechanics seem to always allow Hong Kong to fall so quickly.

We might try splitting the garrison in two components but leaving both in Hong Kong (as opposed to moving some to Canton as suggested) - perhaps having two units will cause the attackers to defeat them one by one. Or, we could up the fortification level to represent the difficulty of assaulting Hong Kong Island itself. Classing it as an atoll might also work.

I think I'll play around a little with this and see what happens. As always, suggestions welcome.

Don

I do not agree with placing Allied units in Canton. They should be in HK only, especiall at this map scale.

• How many people have playtested the mod to the point where HK falls?
• How many days did it take, and how does that compare to your experience of the original scenarios and map?
• I have added a river between HK and Canton - did that make a difference?
• What difference will it make after the next patch, which I think includes a change to river movement and combat?
• Is HK attacked with more Japanese troops than attacked it in reality?

I ask these questions because I have so far been too busy to playtest the mod myself - sorry.

My opinion is IF HK needs adjusting somehow, then I would start by increasing the fort level.

I do not agree with placing Allied units in Canton. They should be in HK only, especiall at this map scale.

Andrew. You made the map. Look at how close the coastline is to the hex edge at Canton. The Allies had troops on the mainland at Kowloon. Not having them there is removing at least 2-3 days from the time necessary to invest HK.

HK has fallen on Day 2 every time out of six starts.

Andrew. You made the map. Look at how close the coastline is to the hex edge at Canton. The Allies had troops on the mainland at Kowloon. Not having them there is removing at least 2-3 days from the time necessary to invest HK.

It is about 20 miles from the edge of HK island to the Kowloon/China border. Since each hex is 60 miles across it is not realistic for HK to be represented by 2 hexes, regardless of the map. From memory I drew the map the way it is because HK is so small, not to allow for the possibility of splitting it over two hexes.

I would still prefer to examine other alternative IF it is deemed necessary. I WAS hoping that adding the river would help HK, but it doesn't seem like this is the case.

Time to try some AI vs AI testing to see what happens for myself, I think.

minor stuff
1) shouldn't Victoria point be at 25, 40 instead of 25 38. There's a road that goes to 25, 40.

2) it was 12/27 before the 33rd japdiv moved one hex

3) 42, 57 (Dumaguete beach hex) starts with a Phil Res Div but very little supply.

Hi Don,

Are you making OOB changes to the Alpha version as you come across them? Or are you giving out the Alpha as it is, to anyone who wants it, keeping a list of OOB changes and then releasing a version 2 at some point?

I'm asking because I may be able to help with testing it, and was wondering if the version I receive would have any of the changes that you guys have already noticed.

Thanks, Brad

3) 42, 57 (Dumaguete beach hex) starts with a Phil Res Div but very little supply.

I can answer this one. The 73rd Reserve Regiment was only partially formed when it's parent unit (71st Reserve Division) was moved to Luzon. It was left behind to continue forming. The Island of Negros (represented by Dumaguete and one other beach hex) had only local militia reporting centers and constabulary bases - there would not be any significant levels of military supply. The initial value of 118 might be a little low but any value over about 200 would be excessive.

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

Hi Don,

Are you making OOB changes to the Alpha version as you come across them? Or are you giving out the Alpha as it is, to anyone who wants it, keeping a list of OOB changes and then releasing a version 2 at some point?

I'm asking because I may be able to help with testing it, and was wondering if the version I receive would have any of the changes that you guys have already noticed.

Thanks, Brad

Yes Sir - I am making small changes as they come up. Most are being mentioned in the forum.

I'd be happy to send you an updated alpha - do you have the artwork?? Artwork is well over 4 meg and must be sent via email as fmail is limited to 2 meg. Let me know what you would like.

Anyone else want an updated alpha, just let me know. The scenario itself zips to about 550k.
Don

I am continuing to experiment with settings for Hong Kong. I recommend against any map changes!! I'm playing with Fort levels and so far I can tell you that 25 is too low and 99 is to high. Testing continues...

Hi Don,

I haven't been able to actually play the game for a while. I just get to visit the forums at times during work. Work is quite a b1tch right now.

I can't think of anything else besides playing your mod. I will send you an email when I can start to play with it. Probably next Thursday (I have to work this weekend). I don't have any of the stuff (artwork, map, etc). I'm looking forward to it, and the wait is just killing me.

bc

Before we go crazy with Hong Kong i would like to actually chart this. In my experience HK falls at about the correct date IF you use the correct amount of troops.

I would like to know from some of our alphas, what did the Japanese use in taking HK and what day did it fall.

Historically Japan used one triangle division, 1 engineer battalion, and 1 siege artillery battalion.
At Canton is a larger force however.

I am curious to here players reaction to the new Japanese OOB I did. The force at Canton especially is quite a bit different.

Mike