Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: bstarr

The upcoming release of 1.5 has curbed my interest in my ongoing scenario, so I'll go ahead and give a little rundown. This may be the last. I'm not going to repeat anything I've already posted . . . except the first one.

1) My only major gripe is the Lancers. I like adding the plane, but it's stats need to be toned down big time. And if more air groups are added, Chinese skill needs to be lowered. You just think you’ve heard the JapFanboys complain; they'll wail like banshees if they start losing air superiority in China in early 42. I like the added planes and would prefer to stretch the Chinese forces to their historic size, but this needs to be countered by lower skill.

2) Also Lancers need to upgrade to P-40N. American units that upgrade to P-47s can be manually set to do so, but Chinese forces don't start with LAncers, so they can't be manually adjusted in the database. And the Chinese were equipped with P-40s late in the war (no P-47s that I know of, anyway).

I agree on the P-40 upgrade but Lemurs owns aircraft so I'll leave this one to him.

3) Bangkok Maru has 4.7s fore, aft, and starboard. 7.7mm MG on the port side. Sounds wrong.

Yup - armament should be 4 4.7s and 1 7.7mm - don't know actual disposition so I made it up. I'll make it up better.

4) the arrival date of the 6th and 7th Australian Divs needs to be pushed forward to compensate for the fact that we now have to transport them from Aden.

I think I can research this one.

5) There is 12000 oil at Panama, but I was unable to load it onto a tanker. (btw, Don, did you notice the two tankers who had reached New Zealand with Oil via the Panama Canal then west rout? I believe they had reached NZ by the date I gave you)

Spent four hours on this already and can't figure it out - tomorrow is another day.

6) ABDAFloatilla spawns.

That's because it's a Dutch unit and ABDA was still in existance when it was lost. When it comes "due" it does not appear as ABDA is gone.

7) the Dutch Marines are able to load onto transports since they are connected to ABDAFlotilla rather than ABDA. Ditto some units in the Philipines.

This was intentional for the US Marines in the Philippines. I'll switch the Dutch Marines back to ABDA.

8) I think there should be more Tomahawks in the pool to cover early loses. Surely there were more than twelve stockpiled if they came up with 100 to send to china. I’m also not sure if I like the idea of limiting end-production planes to 1 production. With 1.5 it’s no big deal, you can always downgrade. But without it there’s too great of a possilbity that a squadron could become depleted of planes and glued to one place while it waits forever for that one plane so they can transfer. Mechanics can always canibalize to put a few more in the air. [:D]

9) There should be more pilots in the Japanese pool to cover the odd pilot drainage that takes place at the start of the game, especially naval air pilots. Even with all groups set with replacements off, my naval air pool was completely empty before the carriers returned from Pearl. Any idea where these pilots went? Anyone remember if this took place in the old scenario15? I don’t think it did. I think adding 100 to each Jap pool should do the trick.

Over my head - Lemurs!

10) Ichang is just about impossible for China to supply. It stayed red 90% of the time, even before the Burma Road closed and put everything in the pink.

11) And I had an odd land engagement at Myitkyina. See if y’all can figure this one out. Several Jap divisions attacked Myitkyina and forced a retreat. However, not all of the allies retreated north toward their base. About half retreated west along the enemy held railroad. In fact, they retreated right into the hex occupied by a Jap Army HQ and the next hex in their path was occupied by another Jap Division! Lazy bastards didn't want to take that long jungle trail, they wanted to hop a train. [:'(]

bs

Way outside my area so I'll leave these last two for someone else.

Don

9) There should be more pilots in the Japanese pool to cover the odd pilot drainage that takes place at the start of the game, especially naval air pilots. Even with all groups set with replacements off, my naval air pool was completely empty before the carriers returned from Pearl. Any idea where these pilots went? Anyone remember if this took place in the old scenario15? I don’t think it did. I think adding 100 to each Jap pool should do the trick Over my head - Lemurs!

The so called "odd drainage" is not a CHS issue - that is ( has been ) present all along. Somehow some airgroups accept replacements over and above even their maximum strength ... and this sucks up the few Japanese Naval pilots at start. I know for example 2ndACR has complained often about this - and I've seen it in every game I've played ( so far I've only played Japanese in the 6 PBEM campaign games I've played/am playing ). So it is certainly a standing issue for the Japanese. Giving "extra" Pilots at start might help ... or it might just delay the problem. I've just been adopting the attitude that "that's the way it is - so live with it". So yes my replacement air units start at about 35-40 experience points come Mar/April 42 when they start comming back in ... and so they need some major training ... but if that's the way it is - then I go with it.

Somehow some airgroups accept replacements over and above even their maximum strength ... and this sucks up the few Japanese Naval pilots at start.

This has been an annoying problem. But:

8) Now, air groups with the “No Replacement” toggle on receive neither pilots nor planes.

That is from Mike Woods' post in the "1.5 list of bug fixes" thread. That seems to indicate that this can finally be controlled by IJ.

quote:

5) There is 12000 oil at Panama, but I was unable to load it onto a tanker. (btw, Don, did you notice the two tankers who had reached New Zealand with Oil via the Panama Canal then west rout? I believe they had reached NZ by the date I gave you)Spent four hours on this already and can't figure it out - tomorrow is another day.

Don (or anyone), are there any factories, oil or resources at Panama? If no, then no matter what, you won't be able to load Oil or Resources. There is a bug in the system that does not allow you to load oil or resources unless the base has some kind of factory, HI, resources, Oil, manpower, etc etc. (the base needs to produce something in order to load Oil. The Jap players have noticed this when using a base as a hub. The hub has to have something (HI, oil, etc) in order to reload the resources and oil.

the solution to this is either remove the starting oil from Panama or put in some kind of factory (resources of 10?)

bc

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735
Don (or anyone), are there any factories, oil or resources at Panama? If no, then no matter what, you won't be able to load Oil or Resources. There is a bug in the system that does not allow you to load oil or resources unless the base has some kind of factory, HI, resources, Oil, manpower, etc etc. (the base needs to produce something in order to load Oil. The Jap players have noticed this when using a base as a hub. The hub has to have something (HI, oil, etc) in order to reload the resources and oil.

the solution to this is either remove the starting oil from Panama or put in some kind of factory (resources of 10?)

bc

Good catch. I had forgotten about that...

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

quote:

5) There is 12000 oil at Panama, but I was unable to load it onto a tanker. (btw, Don, did you notice the two tankers who had reached New Zealand with Oil via the Panama Canal then west rout? I believe they had reached NZ by the date I gave you)Spent four hours on this already and can't figure it out - tomorrow is another day.

Don (or anyone), are there any factories, oil or resources at Panama? If no, then no matter what, you won't be able to load Oil or Resources. There is a bug in the system that does not allow you to load oil or resources unless the base has some kind of factory, HI, resources, Oil, manpower, etc etc. (the base needs to produce something in order to load Oil. The Jap players have noticed this when using a base as a hub. The hub has to have something (HI, oil, etc) in order to reload the resources and oil.

the solution to this is either remove the starting oil from Panama or put in some kind of factory (resources of 10?)

bc

Unfortunately I think there may be more to it than that. I tried adding oil production last night and it did not work. Today I tried adding Oil, Resource, and HI and it also did not work. Screen shots below.

What I did:
1. Create a variation of CHS giving Panama City 10 Resource, 10 Oil, 10 Heavy Industry
2. Load Game, create a Tanker TF at Panama City and select "Load Oil" - see this image with 12/7 date.
3. Ran a turn.
4. Saw that Task Force had not loaded oil and had reset to "Cargo Idle" - see next image with 12/8 date.
5. Created another variation with Los Angeles (Base 851) copied on top of Panama City (base 301) with only location changed (from 146/51 to 147/101).
6. Repeated 2, 3
7. Saw that tanker had loaded 2000 oil (did not capture this screen).

Either:
1. Something else is wrong in the definition of Panama City
2. I am stupid
3. Both

After the turn:

Hi Don,

So, you've fixed the problem by copying another base template over Panama City?

Essentially, you've fixed the problem, but don't know what caused the problem in the first place?

Thanks, Brad

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

Hi Don,

So, you've fixed the problem by copying another base template over Panama City?

Essentially, you've fixed the problem, but don't know what caused the problem in the first place?

Thanks, Brad

Oh I wish I could let it go that easily. I'm afraid I am driven to find out what was the problem - any ideas??

Was Panama listed as Airfield or something like that? I know there is a difference between a base that has a port and airfield and an inland base that doesn't have a port. I know that in your scenario, Panama starts with a port, but maybe you had it listed as Airfield (or the term that defines a base with no port), so even though it says 4 for port size, the computer doesn't recognize the port at all.

Of course, I assume other task forces work fine regarding refueling and loading troops, so my theory is probably crap.

12) Bula has a resource factory in the database, but it starts off as a beach and apparently beaches can't have factories. I've got a Construction unit on the way there and will try to upgrade the hex to see what happens, but I'm playing at a much slower pace now. It may be a while.

OK - I believe I have found the difficulty.

It appears that oil can not be loaded unless there is also some Resource on hand. After a bunch of tests I finally found that to load oil:

1. There must be oil at the base.
2. There must be at least 1 unit of resource at the base!
3. There does NOT have to be oil production at the base.
4. There does not have to be resource production at the base.

I would guess that this may be a programming error. Since the "Load Oil" button is properly displayed whenever oil is available and tankers will properly load oil if resource is also present, I think it is possible that an execution-time check may be mis-coded to reference resource and not oil.

Anyway, add 1 resource and you got it!

In playing with this I found a few other base-related items that might need attention. I will get them together and post a list later.

ORIGINAL: bstarr

12) Bula has a resource factory in the database, but it starts off as a beach and apparently beaches can't have factories. I've got a Construction unit on the way there and will try to upgrade the hex to see what happens, but I'm playing at a much slower pace now. It may be a while.

It might be a good idea to return Bula to it's original Scenario 15 values of 1 (1) Port and perhaps 1 (1) airfield.

If the game has limitations that require slight un-historic accuracy, then I'm ok with changing it. I think the priority should be for the game to work correctly first, with the second priority to historical accuracy. (so Bulla can be a level 1 port at start, even if that wasn't correct on 12/7/41)

anyway, my 2 cents.

congrats Don for figuring out the exact problem with loading oil.

bc

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
OK - I believe I have found the difficulty.

It appears that oil can not be loaded unless there is also some Resource on hand.

I'm solving the problem by getting rid of the oil, resources, fuel, and supplies from Panama.

As John Houseman would have said...

"Panama gets supplies the old-fashioned way, they SHIP it."

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

Was Panama listed as Airfield or something like that? I know there is a difference between a base that has a port and airfield and an inland base that doesn't have a port. I know that in your scenario, Panama starts with a port, but maybe you had it listed as Airfield (or the term that defines a base with no port), so even though it says 4 for port size, the computer doesn't recognize the port at all.

Of course, I assume other task forces work fine regarding refueling and loading troops, so my theory is probably crap.

Panama city is listed as a base in the Alpha.

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

OK - I believe I have found the difficulty.

It appears that oil can not be loaded unless there is also some Resource on hand. After a bunch of tests I finally found that to load oil:

1. There must be oil at the base.
2. There must be at least 1 unit of resource at the base!
3. There does NOT have to be oil production at the base.
4. There does not have to be resource production at the base.

I would guess that this may be a programming error. Since the "Load Oil" button is properly displayed whenever oil is available and tankers will properly load oil if resource is also present, I think it is possible that an execution-time check may be mis-coded to reference resource and not oil.

Anyway, add 1 resource and you got it!

In playing with this I found a few other base-related items that might need attention. I will get them together and post a list later.

Good job, Don. Personally I can't do this kind of stuff right now with all the legal poop from my business partnership flap flying about. Zero patience.

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

OK - I believe I have found the difficulty.

It appears that oil can not be loaded unless there is also some Resource on hand. After a bunch of tests I finally found that to load oil:

1. There must be oil at the base.
2. There must be at least 1 unit of resource at the base!
3. There does NOT have to be oil production at the base.
4. There does not have to be resource production at the base.

I would guess that this may be a programming error. Since the "Load Oil" button is properly displayed whenever oil is available and tankers will properly load oil if resource is also present, I think it is possible that an execution-time check may be mis-coded to reference resource and not oil.

Anyway, add 1 resource and you got it!

In playing with this I found a few other base-related items that might need attention. I will get them together and post a list later.

Been real busy this week and would have read this earlier and maybe saved you some time, anyway in order to load oil/resource from a base the base must be producing one of these items.

All you need to do is put in production of 1 resource or 1 oil and you will be able to load oil and resources from the base... If not the product gets stuck there and you can not remove it (ala Palau) Many Japanese players use palau as a dumping ground for oil in their supply system only problem is once its unloaded its stuck there forever.

ORIGINAL: pry

(snipped)

in order to load oil/resource from a base the base must be producing one of these items.

All you need to do is put in production of 1 resource or 1 oil and you will be able to load oil and resources from the base... If not the product gets stuck there and you can not remove it (ala Palau) Many Japanese players use palau as a dumping ground for oil in their supply system only problem is once its unloaded its stuck there forever.

Thanks Pry

We tried this and, for the allies at least, it did not seem to work. The problem was originally detected at one of our new bases but I ran all tests at two bases: our new Panama City and Sandakan on Borneo. Sandakan does not have oil storage or production but I added them for the test. I found that oil production did not solve the problem. There are some screen shots above. After a lot of testing I found that neither oil production nor resource production is required to load oil. All you have to do is have some resource at the base - 1 unit will do. The attached screen shot shows a tanker loading oil at Panama with no production there. I'll try and set up some tests for Palau and let you know.

Found same results for the Japanese at Palau. Created a test scenario and added 10,000 initial Oil and 100 initial Resource to Palau. The base has no oil or resource production, in fact it has no factories of any kind. Started the game, formed a Tanker Task Force at Palau and instructed it to load oil. Ran one turn and verified that the Tanker had loaded oil and was continuing to load.

It seems that production itself is not the answer, just the availability of some resource. The more I think about this the more I come to believe that this is a small programming error in the cargo load functions.

During the orders phase the appearance of the "Load Oil" button is based on the presence of oil at the base.

During turn resolution there must be an "oil load" check whose purpose is to be sure that there is some oil at the base that can be loaded. This check may mistakenly reference resource instead of oil. This would be quite understandable - especially if oil and resource are referenced by offset - something like location[12] and location[13].

Don