Matrix Games Forums

Game looks good. Using "real life" uniforms is a must. Game will be judged by casual gamers and grognards alike.

Well that was our reason for wanting infantry types to be clearly recognizable to anyone who looks at them, both casual gamers and grognards. There are 8 nations plus a minor country color. There are four types of infantry. That's 36 types of infantry. If there's not some order imposed on this it'll simply be too overwhelming for new players.

I've had a dozen or so non-Napoleonic-hobbiest-but-strategy-game players in-house for testing and feedback: the initial reaction of every one of them was that they found the Napoleonic details confusing. They don't recognize the old flags, don't know the names of things, don't associate uniforms with nations. I try to be close to my customer, and we use flags and units that are as historical as possible but that still cohere in such a way that is accessible to new users.

Looking forward to this release... it needs an editor included so that you can create your own battles.. this greatly enhances the replay value.

Any chance you can add the Civil War as an expansion Pack?

If there is interest after the initial release, we hope to do something like an expansion pack that would include a scenario editor and many historical battle maps and orders of battle.

I would say Civil War should be a full blown sequel product since there are so many differences between that era and the Napoleonic.


Eric

I think this is a great game in the making. I'm not a Napoleonic era fan (other than the ancient AH Waterloo board game 40 years ago) but your game could bring me back into the fold. Please keep up the good work and continue the mouth-watering previews!

Looking very, very good.

I do wish that the 3d units had more of a tabletop look to them, maybe like a "stand" of units-I would even like them smaller. Very nice besides. I'm getting this for sure,

I must beg your indulgence regarding the cavalry plumes. The plume of which you wrote comes from a generic Napoleonic helmet object Mr Barish used to create the cavalry, not an Austrian 3D helmet object per se.

Some plumes were black horesehair, some were big poofy feather things, which could be all sorts of colors. I originally did try them w/ black plumes for some countries, but their heads just looked like black blobs. Identifiablity of country was overriding concern here.

Again, there was enormous variation of uniforms even within a country. Individual units would have radically different types of uniforms from their peers. I mean, there were french cav that wore red head to toe, and others that wore all white. At some point we have to draw a line and actually make this stuff.

The 3D objects require an enormous amount of work, and it is simply beyond our means to make custom 3D helmets and coats for each nation.

Indeed! It's a HUGE effort to do that. Also, modelling aside, if we had to re-render all those frames of animation (there are several tens of thousands of distinct frames) for each type of unit w/ a historically correct attire... well ... needless to say, we'd be waiting a lot longer for CoG. Like this time next year. (The napoleonic uniforms are fun, though. I wouldn't mind spending a year or so just doing fun flamboyant napoleonic uniforms.)

I believe Mr Barish uses the Osprey series as the basis for his uniforms.

Yeah, mostly. Also lots of paintings. Again, for all you folks saying that the austrians never wore gray coats, I refer you to Msr. Vernet and the paintings hanging at the Versailles. Lots of dead ausrian troops in gray. In any case, playability and clarity of what's on screen has to trump historic precision.

Maybe you could look to Age of Rifles for Norm's 3D type symbols for Tactical battles, also his historical uniforms.

Interesting. We tried something like that early on. Thought it didn't show enough w/ formation. Do those animate?

I want to say something about those generic flags on the strategic map that the minor provinces will be using. It would be real nice if they could be 100% accurate (regarding each nation) as well.

We tried to get them as historically accurate as possible using a variety of sources from the period, including a couple graphic encyclopedias which were published in the early 1800's. It's worth pointing out that our concept of the 'nation-state' is a somewhat recent thing. There isn't a perfect 1:1 correlation to political entities of the day and our province divisions. (ie various parts of poland, turkish regions etc.) For the ones for which no data exist, we would make things based on earlier or later materials.

If you aware of a particularly eggregious error w/ one of the flags please let me know. But please be mindful that there has been a significant amount of research already done, and we're not just making things up at random. Also, because of the severe time constraint we have, I have to prioritize work and I might not be able to fix it, because there are plenty of critical things that must be addressed.

As a student of military history for the past 20+ years, I dearly crave historical accuracy in movies, books, and games; but for Christ's sake, don't get wrapped around the axle on trying to make a unit have the correct facings and numbers of buttons on the tunic. As you stated, many things changed during the period covered in the game and there is absolutely no way you could reflect all those chages as the game progresses. As far as I'm concerned, you have achieved an acceptable level of accuracy for such a complicated era. I prefer the NATO icons anyway.[;)]

I've had a dozen or so non-Napoleonic-hobbiest-but-strategy-game players in-house for testing and feedback: the initial reaction of every one of them was that they found the Napoleonic details confusing. They don't recognize the old flags, don't know the names of things, don't associate uniforms with nations. I try to be close to my customer, and we use flags and units that are as historical as possible but that still cohere in such a way that is accessible to new users.

never read something like that from a designer working on a napoleonic project[X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][X(]

by the way for the french, the 3 colors was only use in 1815, during most of the period it was a diamond, certainly to confusing....

if your army look like a mexican one, it's not only an RGB color question but also the general design of the uniform and shakos.
It's only requiered to have a minimun background on the period.

Your enthusiasm for this project is charming.

difficult to be very enthusiasm when I think than the Russian guard will look like the French Old Guard but in green [&:]

I have received an enormous amount of enthusiasm and encouragement for our game via electronic mail, and I am certain that the Napoleonics community at large will be as understanding of the need for such compromises.

I begin to ask myself if you use electronic mail tactic like ADM's Bush .

Also, because of the severe time constraint we have, I have to prioritize work and I might not be able to fix it, because there are plenty of critical things that must be addressed.

the last time I have heard about severe time constraint was for "Pax Romana" ....

ORIGINAL: 2gaulle

I've had a dozen or so non-Napoleonic-hobbiest-but-strategy-game players in-house for testing and feedback: the initial reaction of every one of them was that they found the Napoleonic details confusing. They don't recognize the old flags, don't know the names of things, don't associate uniforms with nations. I try to be close to my customer, and we use flags and units that are as historical as possible but that still cohere in such a way that is accessible to new users.

never read something like that from a designer working on a napoleonic project[X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][X(]

by the way for the french, the 3 colors was only use in 1815, during most of the period it was a diamond, certainly to confusing....

if your army look like a mexican one, it's not only an RGB color question but also the general design of the uniform and shakos.
It's only requiered to have a minimun background on the period.

Your enthusiasm for this project is charming.

difficult to be very enthusiasm when I think than the Russian guard will look like the French Old Guard but in green [&:]

I have received an enormous amount of enthusiasm and encouragement for our game via electronic mail, and I am certain that the Napoleonics community at large will be as understanding of the need for such compromises.

I begin to ask myself if you use electronic mail tactic like ADM's Bush .

Also, because of the severe time constraint we have, I have to prioritize work and I might not be able to fix it, because there are plenty of critical things that must be addressed.

the last time I have heard about severe time constraint was for "Pax Romana" ....

2gaulle.....What's wrong with you?

I begin to ask myself if you use electronic mail tactic like ADM's Bush .

Hey, thanks for the heads-up on this! I try to keep abreast of what other developers are up to. I wasn't aware that Archer-Daniels-Midland was working with President Bush on a campaign level Napoleonics game. They're going to present some stiff competition for us, to be sure: controlling a branch of the Federal Government will give them quite an edge -- and especially if it's true that they're copying *my* electronic mail tactic!


Eric

LOL @ Eric! [:D][:D][:D]

ORIGINAL: 2gaulle

I understand now why your soldiers look like more Mexican 1846 than Napoleonic.

Naturally there were many, many different kinds of uniforms, and they varied not only by country but also by unit and even by year, as I'm sure you well know. Some standardization was necessary not only to speed game production, but also for ease of use by the average player. Hence, the uniforms you see are not always an exact match for the country, unit, or precise year of combat. Overall, I think our graphics designer has done an excellent job of finding designs that fit most situations without deviating too far from the historical facts. The figures are abstractions. Maybe someday we'll be able to release new graphics with more detailed uniforms for various units, but for now I think these designs serve their purpose (visual enjoyment vs. ease of game play) quite well.

Perhaps you cannot see the tails on many of the soldiers' jackets. To me, this clearly indicates a uniform from the turn of the century, rather than the middle of the 19th.

, but for now I think these designs serve their purpose (visual enjoyment vs. ease of game play) quite well.

that confirm your poor interest for history.

Screenshots look fantastic.

Havent checked this forum for awhile.

And guess what..........

2gaulle is at it again...........Is your job one of those jumped up critics who read a book or watch a film then rip it to pieces even though they couldnt do it themselves??

2Gaulle I have to ask this question. Why are you posting in this game forum when it seems like you dont have any respect for the designer and also have such a low opinion of the game?

You see if I goto a game forum and the game isnt to my taste or the design doesnt suit I'd ask them why they havent done this or that. I would get my answer and then make some suggestions. If they didn't take them on board fair enough I wouldnt push it or become insulting. If the game wasnt going to be something I'd enjoy I'd not post anymore and go look for something else. I wouldnt hang around nit picking at things I saw as faults in the game.

You really should goto the EIA forum and wait for that game or check out the other Napoleonic game.

I believe it is similar to SSI's Panzer Generals in terms of general interface and turn structure, though there are some important differences.

So I imagine, there is just one movement, and one combat order per unit?

So I imagine, there is just one movement, and one combat order per unit?

Here's the general flow during detailed combat starting with a unit's turn:


1) Unit begins its turn

2) Map fills with highlighted area where unit can move; hexes show move points unit will have remaining if it moves to the hex.

3a) Player clicks on a hex; unit moves there immediately; fog of war and sighting are adjusted; unit may have move points remaining.

3b) Player changes facing; unit points are deducted; etc.

3c) Player issues combat order: fire (issued by clicking on target unit), or charge (issued by clicking "charge" button or by pressing 'c' key.) Unit most likely will not have moves left; however some units (guerilla and light cavalry, or regular cavalry in special circumstances) may have a small amount of moves remaining.

3d) Player issues change of formation, split, skirmish, or similar order. Unit may have movement points remaining.


Units need not go in their turn order but may wait, though this consumes some of their movement points.



Hope this gives a little better impression of the flow of detailed combat.


Eric

ORIGINAL: wodin

Screenshots look fantastic.

Havent checked this forum for awhile.

And guess what..........

2gaulle is at it again...........Is your job one of those jumped up critics who read a book or watch a film then rip it to pieces even though they couldnt do it themselves??

2Gaulle I have to ask this question. Why are you posting in this game forum when it seems like you dont have any respect for the designer and also have such a low opinion of the game?

Yes, this game looks superb! I can't wait to get my hands on it[&o].
About 2gaulle[8|]...some things never change...
Seriously, this game will fill a huge void and it's just darn pretty...good job!

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

3a) Player clicks on a hex; unit moves there immediately; fog of war and sighting are adjusted; unit may have move points remaining.

If I understand correctly, you can then move your first unit to scout and show enemy positions. That reminds me a game called Civil War Generals 2, in that game, a powerful artillery coupled with that FOW system resulted in matches being a sort of mouse and cat games, very unhistorical, I hope it is not the case for CoG

If I understand correctly, you can then move your first unit to scout and show enemy positions. That reminds me a game called Civil War Generals 2, in that game, a powerful artillery coupled with that FOW system resulted in matches being a sort of mouse and cat games, very unhistorical, I hope it is not the case for CoG

I experimented with several FOW penetration systems. My opinion based on this was that the more difficult it was to see, the more like hide-and-seek the battle was; the easier it was to see, the less like hide-and-seek. The current scheme I outlined above is most lenient system of those with which we experimented.


Eric

That reminds me a game called Civil War Generals 2, in that game, a powerful artillery coupled with that FOW system resulted in matches being a sort of mouse and cat games, very unhistorical, I hope it is not the case for CoG

I was thinking of exactly the same thing. Quite unrealistic (and troublesome) when I would send a whole division of troops on foot to march miles around for no other reason than trying to spot where my enemy was located! Then when you finaly stumble into one, you get ambushed! Arggggg.


At least Panzer General III had recon units and recon orders, but even then I'm not so sure it was a great system. When you have garrisoned a city with a whole division of units, I would think that is impossible to hide like that in an age with radios and telephones yes? Yet the engine would say.. Ohhh, now those units are almost perfectly hidden! Perhaps all thouse thousands of city folk passing buy just happen to not notice all those tanks and trucks with soldiers milling about their streets?

Can we see a few more screens of the 3D view ... ???

Also..

Can we see a shots of the Strategic overview map?

Game looks great and I will definately be buying... I like the fact you have combined strategic and tactical

In CWG2 the problem was that Fog of War was shorter than Line of Sight AND artillery range. The net result was that playing against Human all sort of unhistorical tactics were favoured, basically it was a dance of scouting units going forward and back, and artillery pounding any enemy unit spotted. I hope CoG has not that problem.
IMO the easiest and more historical FOW in a Napolenic tactic game should be coincident with LOS, with rear line units hiding behind front line units