Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Keel hauling? Re-education camps? What ever happened to good old fashioned burnings at the stake?

Ah, a disciple of George Carlin?!? What about n@ked upside-down crucifixions? [:D]

This is key reason I signed on to CHS Team to rework Chinese OB. So I hope to have that ready for Beta by end of Oct with release in December.

What sources will you be using?

I'm not sure what people's opinions of the Europa system are around here, but from my experience there OoB's are fairly comprehensize.I stumbled across this searching the web...
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~asiactr/sino-japanese/engmilbib.pdf
http://hmsgrd.com/Files/Glory/WoR%20Designer%27s%20Notes.pdf

The Glory guys use a rule that corresponds with J. Burns static unit request...

Rule 37D1b. Special Rules / Chinese Garrisons / Southern
Shensi. To the detriment of the Chinese war effort in general
and to the chagrin of western advisors (particularly later in the
war) the Chinese Nationalists maintained a significant garrison to
blockade and prevent a southward Communist infiltration from
their northern bases into the heartland of Nationalist China. The
garrison was rather modest in the early years, but was increased
dramatically as the war progressed. Most of the garrison
expansion occurred during the years from 1941 to 1945 and thus
is not shown by this rule. This rule will fall apart after 1941 and
not be sufficient to depict the actual garrison requirements in the
later war years. However, it is sufficient for purposes of War of
Resistance.

Rule 37D1c. Special Rules / Chinese Garrisons / Major and
Dot Cities. The local warlords and provincial leaders, while
generally cooperating with the central government, were far from
completely loyal or completely subservient. When requested to
send forth their army, they usually did so in part only, keeping a
substantial garrison to protect their own cities and "borders."
This garrison rule requires the Chinese player to adhere to the
historical realities. Many of the forces retained in garrison fall
below the scale depicted by War of Resistance. Typically they
might rate as 0-3 Police, Security, and Border units and would
have been used to garrison provincial border crossings and
maintain internal provincial security in general. (And no… they
don’t even rate highly enough to warrant an effect against
Japanese overruns; thus they don’t deserve to be shown by
counters and are ignored for game purposes.)

One other idea I thought of in China would be to reduce the base sizes in China. Once again I don't have the data in front of me but why not reduce the airbases to size 1 or 2. I realize this change wouldn't reflect the actual airbase capabilities.

However my reasoning on this...

It would eliminate supply stockpiles due to the spoilage rule, making Japanese and Chinese attacks more difficult. This change would also potentially eliminate the use of China as an air unit training ground.

Anyway just kind of brainstorming this...not sure if this would work or not.

My take on the China question is not so much the balance in China but the feel that is provided by the game system. It currently seems the two paths to balance are by (#1) both sides doing nothing or (#2) both sides being aggressive. From what I've read the people seeking change are hoping to eliminate the ends of the bell curve. IMO the changes suggested are intended to limit the second option...Such that taking an aggressive stance in China is not an attractive option, which would not be a bad thing.

ORIGINAL: treespider

One other idea I thought of in China would be to reduce the base sizes in China. Once again I don't have the data in front of me but why not reduce the airbases to size 1 or 2. I realize this change wouldn't reflect the actual airbase capabilities.

However my reasoning on this...

It would eliminate supply stockpiles due to the spoilage rule, making Japanese and Chinese attacks more difficult. This change would also potentially eliminate the use of China as an air unit training ground.

Anyway just kind of brainstorming this...not sure if this would work or not.

Wouldn't that make the Chinese medium bombers unable to operate?

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
This is key reason I signed on to CHS Team to rework Chinese OB. So I hope to have that ready for Beta by end of Oct with release in December.

What sources will you be using?

When it comes to research I'm an "ecclectic" which means I cull from anything and everything - trying to "synthesize" the truth from the mass of data - no two sources agree on everything - and no one source has everything - nor is any one source 100% accurate - so one must look far and wide to get as much data as possible and then try to rationalize the truth out of that - and yes I have the Glory game and it is part of the "anything and everything" ... I also ( for some strange reason ) have collected ( over about the past ten years ) about a dozen Chinese sources on the war in China - so these are another part of the "anything and everything" ... I've started by doing an "inventory" of units from the official KMT history ( at WITP divisional level this resulted in exactly 666 units ) Don tells me I have about 60 slots remaining - hence full divisional TOE will not be possible - but we will be redoing OB "from the ground up" regardless and then make compromises to fit into the slots.

If we wind up using some "static" units, I'd still like these to be real historical units ( not just amorphous base units ) to preserve the historicity, so some Corps may be static and some maybe mobile, but they will still be historical Corps. To the extent possible ( and with Don's approval ) we will try to "pre-break-down" some more of the better Corps into divisions, this will provide more chits for the Chinese and help preserve the breakdown pool slots ( which I'm sure has a finite size - though not sure what that size is ).

At the same time we will be looking at resources and oil across China and SEA .. and one "trick" Andrew has discovered is that we can "pop" new bases into existence in the middle of the game - in particular in China. Much of the Allied provided material was actually "horded" for post war show down - hence we need to represent ever growing Chinese "cottage" industries, making ammunition and such. These could be brought in farther from the front as time goes on to represent either increased capacity if stability exists in China or replaced capacity if front line cities have been taken. Either way, this is an interesting design tool we will consider using as well.

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

At the same time we will be looking at resources and oil across China and SEA .. and one "trick" Andrew has discovered is that we can "pop" new bases into existence in the middle of the game - in particular in China. ... Either way, this is an interesting design tool we will consider using as well.

Hey, does this really work?

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

At the same time we will be looking at resources and oil across China and SEA .. and one "trick" Andrew has discovered is that we can "pop" new bases into existence in the middle of the game - in particular in China. ... Either way, this is an interesting design tool we will consider using as well.

Hey, does this really work?

Andrew says it does - and he is usually right - but I haven't seen it with my MKI eyeballs yet though.

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Other than the ANZAC/India HQ changes (posted earlier in this thread), we will be making some adjustments to aircraft and aircraft engine production plus some miscellaneous mods.

The production changes are still in the works. Here are the other proposed changes for review:

Adjustment of Fortification values for Canadian Bases:
270 - Victoria to 2
891 - Vancouver to 2


Correct Vanguard secondary Armament
Class 1448 - Weapons 3 and 4, number adjusted to 8
Ship 3181 - Refresh from class


Add DE Tomich to OOB:
4005 - Tomich, Cannon Class, arrives 450718 at Panama



Adjustments to Kitty Hawk Class:
Class 422 - Adjust light AA to 8 20mm, no 40mm. Set upgrade to new class 1509
Class 1509 - New Upgrade for Kitty Hawk Class, copy values of previous class 422, set upgrade date to 8/44
Ship 6732 - Alter name to Kitty Hawk



Australian OOB Adjustments:

Remove two late arriving divisions - these were just newe command organizations over existing formations
2852 - 5th Australian Division, remove
3137 - 11th Australian Division, remove

Add two additional brigades - these were formed in early 1942 from garrison units (most of which are not now in the OOB)
2852 - 31st Australian Brigade, arrives 420115 at Sydney
3137 - 32nd Australian Brigade, arrives 420215 at Newcastle



Correct Position of M3 Stuart Tanks
Device slot 517 has been shown to not have pool capability. The M3 Stuart Tank with Upgrade to M4 Sherman Tank will
be moved from this position to slot 492, overlaying the unused BT-7 Light Tank.

Adjust the following Locations to reflect this change:
2018 - USMC Infantry Division TOE
2160 - United State Base Force

Correct Assignment from Device 470 (M3 Stuarts with Light Tank Upgrade Path) to new Device 492:
3020 - 3rd Marine Div
3108 - 4th Marine Div
3170 - 6th Marine Div
3237 - 5th Marine Div


Correct Position of 383rd Heavy Bomb Squadron - must be in slot 1618 to handle atomic bomb:
Switch positions of VMF-215 (in slot 1618) and 393rd Heavy Bomb Sqd (in slot 1686)


Adjustments for correct Marks and arrivals of British Liberator Bombers:
145 - Change from Liberator VI to Liberator III. Copy all particulars from B-24D (aircraft 198) except for icon - leave as 145. Set upgrade to new Liberator VI, aircraft 210,
210 - New Liberator VI, copy all values from existing aircraft 145 except availability date - set to 1/44.



Airgroup Max Size adjustments:
355 - G2/4th Daitai correct max size to 27

Don any ETA on the CHS update??? You guys are doing great work!!! [:)]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Don any ETA on the CHS update???

Not yet I'm afraid. Somethings are going a little slower that originally thought. All the posted items (with a few last minute adjustments) will be done tonight. We still have work on aircraft and aircraft engine production and some artwork that is not yet ready.

So - there's still time for last minute suggestions!

Don

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

So - there's still time for last minute suggestions!

Don

Reminded of Life of Brian. Always look on the bright side of life... [;)]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

At the same time we will be looking at resources and oil across China and SEA .. and one "trick" Andrew has discovered is that we can "pop" new bases into existence in the middle of the game - in particular in China. ... Either way, this is an interesting design tool we will consider using as well.

Hey, does this really work?

Andrew says it does - and he is usually right - but I haven't seen it with my MKI eyeballs yet though.

I did a very brief test and it seems to work. There are some strange things happening though - under some circumstances the "reinforcement" bases appear at the start of the game instead of at their allotted date. I need to do some more testing. This is not top of my priority list, however, as everyone first needs to decide whether this approach is actually needed.

I am still running my AI vs AI test of scenario 154, and I am now up to March 1943. So far the Allies are rolling in supply/fuel, and the Japanese are swimming in oil. It will be interesting to see what happens as the Allies increase their forces and go on the offensive.

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
... first needs to decide whether this approach is actually needed.

If it works reasonably well it might be the ticket for ramping up Allied supply instead of having it start out at 100 mph (on both sides of the map - USA & India).

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Don any ETA on the CHS update???

Not yet I'm afraid. Somethings are going a little slower that originally thought. All the posted items (with a few last minute adjustments) will be done tonight. We still have work on aircraft and aircraft engine production and some artwork that is not yet ready.

So - there's still time for last minute suggestions!

Don

Take it that means you guys will be including all the new Elf plane art.... [:)]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

I'd also like to take this opportunity to call for additional problem reports and change requests (please be reasonable guys).

Serious nit-picking:

Chris Shores and Brian Cull's "Bloody Shambles" holds a fairly comprehensible RAF Malaya OOB at kickoff and to a lesser extend also for the DEI (vol.I, p.57-60), and it differs ever so slightly from the one presented in CHS.

RAF 36 Sqd.: 7 out of 12 Vildebeests at Gong Kedah just south of Kota Bharu, from whence they attacked shipping off the coast on the first morning of the war. Maybe the sqd. should be moved to Kota Bharu to represent this?

RAF 60 Sqd.: 8 Blenheims (2 less than CHS). I've been unable to discover how many 60 Sdq. Blenheims were left in Burma - on p.240 it's described as "a handful".

RAF 100 Sdq.: 14 Vildebeest (2 less than CHS). The sdq. was in the process of converting to Beauforts and had received 6, which were evacuated to Oz early on. Maybe these should be placed in the replacement pool?

RAF 243 Sqd.: Had two Buffalo's detached to Kota Bharu. Total strength thus 17 (2 more than CHS).

RAF aircraft in storage included 46 Buffalos (CHS 50), 15 Vildebeests (CHS 0), 9 Hudsons (CHS 0), 5 Blenheims (type unspecified) (CHS 0), and 5 Albacores (CHS 0).

About half the sqd's have different commanders than those given by Shores & Cull.

All the RAF & RAAF Hudson in use are described as Hudson II's.

By the most generous count, the Dutch should have 92 Brewsters available. They received one batch of 72 339's and were in process of receiving 20 of the more powerful 439's - although an unspecified number of the latter were yet to arrive by the time of the fall of Java.

According to Shores & Cull, 39 Brewsters were with the sqd's, which is the exact no. of servicable aircraft in CHS. CHS also adds 28 Brewsters in repair with the sdq's and 30 in the pool, to a total of 97 - 5 aircraft more than most generous max. Maybe the pool should be lowered to 25 or less?

Shores & Cull state that 20 Hawks were available, of which 13 were servicable. CHS gives 18 Hawks, all servicable.

24 Demons available, 9 servicable. CHS gives 18 CW-21's, all servicable. Maybe 2e-VLG-IV Groep should be given 16 aircraft of which 10 in repair, and 2e-2e-VLG-IV Groep 8 total and 5 in repair, plus something simelar for 1e-VLG-IV Groep?

No replacements were on hand for either of the above.

If you accept the veracity of the above claims and it doesn't clash with the CHS design philosophy, but aren't bothered to waste time on minor stuff like this, I'd be happy to do it for you.

Tom

There is a lot of different information around on the Dutch air order of battle. CHS used the site below for it's OOB, except that WH-1 Patrouille was omitted and it's three aircraft left in the pool.

The OOB is dated November 30, not December 7th, but is complete and in good order.

Dutch Air OOB


As to the Dutch Brewsters, note in the above OOB that some of the squadrons were not formed until a week or so into the war. There is a technical problem with this in WITP, so we formed all the squadrons at the start and set some to 100% under repair.

The problem is that leaving aircraft in the pool for the late-forming squadrons exposes them to use as replacements for other squadrons, thus causing the late-forming squadrons to use other aircraft types.

The total order was 92 of which 21 were not delivered by the fall of Java - they were aboard ships, enroute, and were diverted to Australia. That means there should be 71 in Java and 21 enoute. The CHS count is indeed high by 5 and I will correct it. The build rate is set to 1 to represent rebuilding destroyed aircraft, etc, and I will leave that.

For previous discussions of this subject, see: This Thread and This one

As to the British in Malaya, there is a lot of approximation due to game mechanics. We do not have a separate pool for Malaya and any aircraft in the "general" pool are apt to be used elsewhere. Other aircraft, like the Albacores, the Singapores, and the Beauforts were excluded due to lack of squadron links. I will leave it to others with more RAF Malaya knowledge to comment further.

According to my count of airframes there were 97 Buffalo airframes sent to the Dutch.
This is from American production sources. Also, the number of Demon 'frames is from an American production source.

Many aircraft you ar esuggesting we add to the replcement pool are already going to be there through the production system.
The production system is pretty much a straight jacket already, so i will not be modding our production because 6 Beauforts should
be in the pool.

Mike

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

According to my count of airframes there were 97 Buffalo airframes sent to the Dutch.
This is from American production sources. Also, the number of Demon 'frames is from an American production source.

Many aircraft you ar esuggesting we add to the replcement pool are already going to be there through the production system.
The production system is pretty much a straight jacket already, so i will not be modding our production because 6 Beauforts should
be in the pool.

Mike

I think the number 97 may come from double counting of five aircraft held back by the U.S. for possible delivery to Surinam. The production was only 92:

This information came from a number of sources and there are a few small inconsistencies:


The total KNIL order for Buffalos was:
24 Model 339C with 1100-hp Wright R-1820-G105 engines (reconditioned)
48 Model 339D with 1200 hp Wright R-1820-G205 engines
20 Model 339-23 (or 439) with 950-hp Wright R-1820-G5 engines (all that were available)


The best information that I can find indicates that 65 Aircraft were delivered by November 30, 1941. At least three of these had been written off but don't know which model.

Of the remainer:
1 Model 339D (the first) was retained in U.S. for tests, damaged during testing, repaired and enroute.
5 Model 339D (serials B3-162 to -166) temporarily held for possible shipment to Surinam but finally sent on the NEI
20 Model 339-23 not completed as of 12/7/41

These 26 aircraft were on five transports enroute Java when the NEI fell and were diverted to Australia:
USAT Mapia - 4 Brewster-439
SS Sloterdijk - 10 Brewster-439
SS Tabian - 3 Brewster-439
SS Tjibesar - 4 Brewster-439
SS Zaandam - 5 Brewster-339 (reached Tjilatjap but did not unload - took on 892 refugees and withdrew to Australia)

(One of the twenty-one aircraft in the first four ships was Model 339D S/N B-3119).


This count leaves one 1 Model 339D unaccounted for. It could have arrived sometime in December, 1941, may have been written off earlier, or there may be a miscount somewhere.


Brewster Production for Netherlands East Indies
1941 March - 18 339C/D.
1941 April - 9 339C/D.
1941 May - 27 339C/D.
1941 June - 18 339C/D.
1942 January - 11 339-23.
1942 March - 1 339-23.
1942 April - 8 339-23, 1 339D (repair?)



Serial Numbers:
317 339D C/n 317 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-395. Captured by Japan.
318 339D C/n 318 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-396. Test flown as NX3180. Fate unknown.
319 339D C/n 319 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-397. Fate unknown
320 339D C/n 320 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-398. Fate unknown.
321 339D C/n 321 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-399. Fate unknown.
322 339D C/n 322 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3100. Fate unknown.
323 339D C/n 323 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3101. Fate unknown.
324 339D C/n 324 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3102. Fate unknown.
325 339D C/n 325 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3103. Fate unknown.
326 339D C/n 326 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3104. Fate unknown.
327 339D C/n 327 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3105. Fate unknown.
328 339D C/n 328 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3106. Fate unknown.
329 339D C/n 329 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3107. Fate unknown.
330 339D C/n 330 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3108. Fate unknown.
331 339D C/n 331 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3109. Fate unknown.
332 339D C/n 332 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3110. Fate unknown.
333 339D C/n 333 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3111. Fate unknown.
334 339D C/n 334 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3112. Fate unknown.
335 339D C/n 335 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3113. Fate unknown.
336 339D C/n 336 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3114. Fate unknown.
337 339D C/n 337 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3115. Fate unknown.
338 339D C/n 338 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3116. Fate unknown.
339 339D C/n 339 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3117. Fate unknown.
340 339D C/n 340 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3118. Fate unknown.
341 339D C/n 341 Was to go to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3119. Not delivered and used by USAAF with tail code 3119.
342 339D C/n 342 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3120. Fate unknown.
343 339D C/n 343 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3121. Fate unknown.
344 339D C/n 344 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3122. Written off 21 Feb 42 at Tjiatar.
345 339D C/n 345 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3123. Fate unknown.
346 339D C/n 346 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3124. Fate unknown.
347 339D C/n 347 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3125. Fate unknown.
348 339D C/n 348 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3126. Fate unknown.
349 339D C/n 349 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3127. Fate unknown.
350 339D C/n 350 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3128. Fate unknown.
351 339D C/n 351 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3129. Fate unknown.
352 339D C/n 352 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3130. Fate unknown.
353 339D C/n 353 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3131. Fate unknown.
354 339D C/n 354 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3132. Fate unknown.
355 339D C/n 355 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3133. Fate unknown.
356 339D C/n 356 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3134. Fate unknown.
357 339D C/n 357 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3135. Fate unknown.
358 339D C/n 358 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3136. Fate unknown.
359 339D C/n 359 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3136. Fate unknown.
360 339D C/n 360 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3138. Fate unknown.
361 339D C/n 361 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3139. Fate unknown.
362 339D C/n 362 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3140. Fate unknown.
363 339D C/n 363 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3141. Fate unknown.
364 339D C/n 364 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3142. Fate unknown.
365 339D C/n 365 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3143. Fate unknown.
366 339D C/n 366 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3144. Fate unknown.
367 339D C/n 367 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3145. Fate unknown.
368 339D C/n 368 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3146. Probably completed as type 439 with ML-KNIL serial B-3167. Not delivered and diverted to USAAF in Australia with tail code 310 in early 42; delivered to RAAF as A51-13 14 Aug 42; returned to USAAF on 8 Jul 43; scrapped at Eagle Farm (Qld) around 6 Nov 43.
369 339D C/n 369 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3147. Probably completed as type 439 with ML-KNIL serial B-3168. Not delivered and diverted to USAAF in Australia with tail code 309 in early 42; delivered to RAAF as A51-12 on 14 Aug 42; returned to USAAF on 25 Jun 43; scrapped at Eagle Farm (Qld).
370 339D C/n 370 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3148. Probably completed as type 439 with ML-KNIL serial B-3169. Not delivered and probably diverted to USAAF in Australia in early 42.
371 339D C/n 371 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3149. Probably completed as type 439 with ML-KNIL serial B-3170. Not delivered and probably diverted to USAAF in Australia in early 42.
372 339D C/n 372 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3150. Probably completed as type 439 with ML-KNIL serial B-3171. Not delivered and diverted to USAAF in Australia in early 42; delivered to RAAF as A51-1 on 5 Jun 42; returned to USAAF 21 Sep 43; scrapped at Eagle Farm (Qld).
373 339D C/n 373 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3151. Probably completed as type 439 with ML-KNIL serial B-3172. Not delivered and diverted to USAAF in Australia with tail code 301 in early 42; delivered to RAAF as A51-7 on 14 Aug 42; returned to USAAF on 13 Nov 43; scrapped at Eagle Farm (Qld).
374 339D C/n 374 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3152. Probably completed as type 439 with ML-KNIL serial B-3173. Not delivered and probably diverted to USAAF in Australia in early 42.
375 339D C/n 375 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3153. Probably completed as type 439 with ML-KNIL serial B-3174. Not delivered and diverted to USAAF in Australia with tail code 311 in early 42; delivered to RAAF as A51-14 on 14 Aug 42; returned to USAAF on 25 Jun 43; scrapped at Eagle Farm (Qld).Alternative references suggest it crashed south west of Derby (WA) whilst still carrying NEI markings; wreckage found in 1980 and went to Dennis Baxter in Sydney. Was owned by Vintage Aircraft Corp, Sonoma, CA. Remnants shipped to the Netherlands for display at the Aviadome.
376 339D C/n 376 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3154. Probably completed as type 439 with ML-KNIL serial B-3175. Not delivered and diverted to USAAF Australia in early 42; delivered to RAAF as A51-2 on 4 Jun 42; written off Tallarook (Vic) on 8 Jul 42 and broken donw into components.
377 339D C/n 377 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3155. Probably completed as type 439 with ML-KNIL serial B-3176. Not delivered and diverted to USAAF in Australia with tail code 305 in early 42; delivered to RAAF as A51-9 on 14 Aug 42; returned to USAAAF on 14 Jan 44; scrapped Eagle Farm (Qld).
378 339D C/n 378 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3156. Probably completed as type 439 with ML-KNIL serial B-3177. Not delivered and diverted to USAAF in Australia in early 42; delivered to RAAF as A51-3 on 13 Jun 42; diverted to USAAF on 24 Jun 43; scrapped at Eagle Farm (Qld).
379 339D C/n 379 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3157. Probably completed as type 439 with ML-KNIL serial B-3178. Not delivered and diverted to USAAF in Australia with tail code 307 in early 42; delivered to RAAF as A51-10 on 14 Aug 42; returned to USAAF on 9 Jul 43; scrapped at Eagle Farm (Qld).Was owned by Vintage Aircraft Corp, Sonoma, CA.
380 339D C/n 380 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3158. Probably completed as type 439 with ML-KNIL serial B-3179. Not delivered and diverted to USAAF in Australia with tail code 308 in early 42; delivered to RAAF as A51-11 on 14 Aug 42; returned to USAAF on 25 Jun 43; scrapped at Eagle Farm (Qld).
381 339D C/n 381 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3159. Probably completed as type 439 with ML-KNIL serial B-3180. Not delivered and diverted to USAAF in Australia with tail code 303 in early 42; wrecked at Williamstown (Vic) and taken on charge by RAAF as A51-16; returned to USAAF on 5 Nov 43; scrapped at Eagle Farm (Qld).
382 339D C/n 382 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3160. Probably completed as type 439 with ML-KNIL serial B-3181. Not delivered and diverted to USAAF in Australia with tail code 302 in early 42; delivered to RAAF as A51-8 on 14 Aug 42; returned to USAAF on 19 Oct 43; scrapped at Eagle Farm (Qld).
383 339D C/n 383 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3161. Probably completed as type 439 with ML-KNIL serial B-3182. Not delivered and diverted to USAAF in Australia with tail code 306 in early 42; wrecked at Williamstown (Vic) and taken on charge by RAAF as A51-17; returned to USAAF on 21 Sep 43; scrapped at Eagle Farm (Qld).
384 339D C/n 384 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3162. Probably completed as type 439 with ML-KNIL serial B-3183. Not delivered and diverted to USAAF in Australia with tail code 312 in early 42; delivered to RAAF as A51-15 on 14 Aug 42; returned to USAAF on 25 Jun 43; scrapped at Eagle Farm (Qld).There is a photo showing the aircraft with US star, tail number and RAAF number.
385 339D C/n 385 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3163. Probably completed as type 439 with ML-KNIL serial B-3184. Not delivered and diverted to USAAF in Australia in early 42; delivered to RAAF as A51-4 on 15 Jun 42; written off at Laverton (Vic) on 16 Jun 42 and broken down to components.
386 339D C/n 386 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3164. Probably completed as type 439 with ML-KNIL serial B-3185. Not delivered and diverted to USAAF in Australia in early 42; delivered to RAAF as A51-6 on 6 Jun 42; written off Darwin (NT) on 29 Oct 42.
387 339D C/n 387 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3165. Probably completed as type 439 with ML-KNIL serial B-3186. Not delivered and diverted to USAAF in Australia in early 42; delivered to RAAF as A51-5 on 6 Jun 42; written off at Derby (WA) on 25 Sep 42.
388 339D C/n 388 to ML-KNIL, probably as B-3166. Probably completed as type 439 with ML-KNIL serial B-3187. Not delivered and probably diverted to USAAF in Australia in early 42.

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

There is a lot of different information around on the Dutch air order of battle. CHS used the site below for it's OOB, except that WH-1 Patrouille was omitted and it's three aircraft left in the pool.

The OOB is dated November 30, not December 7th, but is complete and in good order.

Dutch Air OOB

This site gives a pretty good OOB for the Dutch on Dec 12th:

http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/600 ... acific.htm

Here's their Naval air OOB:

http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/016 ... y_air.html

Here's the army air OOB:

http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/016 ... _army.html

and:

http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/016 ... y_air.html

Jim

Are we meant to receive 55 LB-30's pr month from the get-go?