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RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:31 pm
by DuckofTindalos
No!
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:44 pm
by Speedysteve
Lazy Castor, lazy [:-]
[;)]
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:58 pm
by Nikademus
Maybe he has Carpal Tunnel?
[:'(]
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:07 pm
by castor troy
Perhaps I´m just at work and don´t have WITP there??[8D]
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:09 pm
by Nikademus
And the rest of us dont work?
We all cant be Mogami.....sittin at home, drink'in a beer and waiting for his next PBEM turn [:D] [:'(]
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:11 pm
by TheElf
Can you mine your OWN harbours or only enemy Harbors? Do the Russians have anything that will perform that mission? Pe-2? SB-2?
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:12 pm
by Subchaser
ORIGINAL: TheElf
Can you mine your OWN harbours or only enemy Harbors? Do the Russians have anything that will perform that mission? Pe-2? SB-2?
Il-4 should be able to do the job
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:15 pm
by rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: TheElf
Can you mine your OWN harbours or only enemy Harbors? Do the Russians have anything that will perform that mission? Pe-2? SB-2?
AFAIK - you do air mining on City Attack missions, so you don't have the opportunity to mine your own harbors this way. Realistically speaking, you wouldn't want to - regular defensive mine fields are thoroughly mapped - and its hard to do this at 100+kts in a plane.
Given the code revealed, i would think the Soviets could do it if they have some levels bombers available and the right sized base...
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:16 pm
by Nikademus
Dont believe you can mine your own harbor. Its like with ML's You have to set the TF to a home port different than the port of origin, then assign the port origin as the "destination" in order to get the MLs to mine their own port.
Mike said any LB can do it if all the other qualifications are met.
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:54 pm
by castor troy
Lazy Castor Troy went home and looked it up and has another question now. Load cost for the Japanese mine is 1411 (so Japanese bombers only can carry 1 mine), load cost of the American MK13 mine is 1000.
I wonder now, why has the American one an effect of 710 and the Japanese only 176 if it weighs 50 % more? The Japanese mines all seem to have quite little effect. Type 4: 88, Type 88: 397, Type 93: 220, Type 3: 176. American ones: from 300 - 1350 (MK 18). The Japanese one which is placed by subs has the biggest effect of the Japanese?
Seems that the Jap mines don´t do much damage, do they in comparison to the American ones? And why do the mines have an accuracy?
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:02 pm
by rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: castor troy
Lazy Castor Troy went home and looked it up and has another question now. Load cost for the Japanese mine is 1411 (so Japanese bombers only can carry 1 mine), load cost of the American MK13 mine is 1000.
I wonder now, why has the American one an effect of 710 and the Japanese only 176 if it weighs 50 % more? The Japanese mines all seem to have quite little effect. Type 4: 88, Type 88: 397, Type 93: 220, Type 3: 176. American ones: from 300 - 1350 (MK 18). The Japanese one which is placed by subs has the biggest effect of the Japanese?
Seems that the Jap mines don´t do much damage, do they in comparison to the American ones? And why do the mines have an accuracy?
This is just a guess - but i suspect they have modelled the effects on historical results.
They (the designers) often did this (i think) where they don't have firm data - i.e. airfields are limited to historical size, but if you look at the sites there was no reason they could not have been made MUCH larger.
So, maybe historically the IJN mines didn't work well - and they modelled the effectiveness like this because of this. I can't recall of any big results that the IJN got with mines, whereas the US efforts caused a big problem (at least for merchants.)
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:07 pm
by castor troy
I thought the effect of a bomb or mine is rated of how much explosive is in it and how much damage it can cause. I didn´t know that I´m laying handgrenades!
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:11 pm
by TheElf
ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: TheElf
Can you mine your OWN harbours or only enemy Harbors? Do the Russians have anything that will perform that mission? Pe-2? SB-2?
AFAIK - you do air mining on City Attack missions, so you don't have the opportunity to mine your own harbors this way. Realistically speaking, you wouldn't want to - regular defensive mine fields are thoroughly mapped - and its hard to do this at 100+kts in a plane.
Given the code revealed, i would think the Soviets could do it if they have some levels bombers available and the right sized base...
The problem i am having is that I have between 2 & 3 Bombard TFs shuttling everyday between Japan and Vladivostok. They don't typically do much damage but it would be nice to pop'em with a mine or something. Russia has no Mine capability whatsoever in this game (I think this is an OOB oversight) and are thus defensless vs. the combined fleet should the IJ player wish to invade the USSR. They also have no torpedo capability, again an oversight.
So what to do?
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:15 pm
by rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: castor troy
I thought the effect of a bomb or mine is rated of how much explosive is in it and how much damage it can cause. I didn´t know that I´m laying handgrenades!
I think (not sure) there is a modification for the type of explosive used, e.g. torpex more effective than TNT.
If the IJN explosives in mines were sub-par, or didn't work historically due to one reason or another, this MIGHT account for it. THis is all speculation, though.
Also, according to the prior posts, some (all? i'll have to reread the post) of the IJN aerial mines were designed to sink after 24 hours or so. Since the WITP mine model doesn't reflect this, they might have just degraded the performance of the mine to try to compensate for them hanging around longer than they would have in real life.
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:20 pm
by rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: castor troy
I thought the effect of a bomb or mine is rated of how much explosive is in it and how much damage it can cause. I didn´t know that I´m laying handgrenades!
Re-reading the post on the IJN aerial mines - they were really wimpy as far as warhead explosives. The type 3 mk 1 had 240 pounds of type 98 explosive, and the type 3 mk 2 had only 123 pounds of the same type. Looks like they averaged the warheads for one generic type 3.
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:35 pm
by TheElf
ORIGINAL: TheElf
ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
ORIGINAL: TheElf
Can you mine your OWN harbours or only enemy Harbors? Do the Russians have anything that will perform that mission? Pe-2? SB-2?
AFAIK - you do air mining on City Attack missions, so you don't have the opportunity to mine your own harbors this way. Realistically speaking, you wouldn't want to - regular defensive mine fields are thoroughly mapped - and its hard to do this at 100+kts in a plane.
Given the code revealed, i would think the Soviets could do it if they have some levels bombers available and the right sized base...
The problem i am having is that I have between 2 & 3 Bombard TFs shuttling everyday between Japan and Vladivostok. They don't typically do much damage but it would be nice to pop'em with a mine or something. Russia has no Mine capability whatsoever in this game (I think this is an OOB oversight) and are thus defensless vs. the combined fleet should the IJ player wish to invade the USSR. They also have no torpedo capability, again an oversight.
So what to do?
I think this situation highlights an OOB oversight. To give USSR no torpedoes, no mines, no CD units, and then expect them to potentially fend off the combined fleet seems unfair. I know all is not far in love and war, but I'm pretty sure that if the USSR faced this situation IRL they'd have looked for an answer to the problem.
Does anyone know for sure what the Russian mine/torpedo capability/potential was? I've seen IL-2s in the IL-2 STURMOVIK that carry Torps, but I think that may have been a special variant.
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:40 pm
by rtrapasso
I remember seeing some of the Russian 2E bombers carrying torpedoes. I don't know what they had on the Far Eastern front, though.
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:44 pm
by Nikademus
well the Japanese should be letting sleeping bears lie anyway.
sorry couldn't resist.... [:D]
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:49 pm
by TheElf
ORIGINAL: Nikademus
well the Japanese should be letting sleeping bears lie anyway.
sorry couldn't resist.... [:D]
Not in my game. My opponent has 43 units beseiging Vladivostok, ~20 Divisions amongst them. First attack was a shock attack about 2 weeks ago(game time). Resulted in 25k casualties for the Japs. But that was because a well supplied 9 fort, and i havew a large force huddling there. He's thrown everything at Russia and has made very little headway, but I attribute that to early errors and some missed opporunities. Had me on the ropes, but basically let me go. Now he's back and is throwing everything but the kitchen sink at me, including the Combined Fleet
Would love to mine Vlad's harbor with my a/c. Seems I can't though.
RE: Level bombers mining!
Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:57 pm
by Nikademus
ORIGINAL: TheElf
He's thrown everything at Russia and has made very little headway, but I attribute that to early errors and some missed opporunities.
Hence the Japanese should let that sleeping bear lie. [;)]
(Because General Murphy, my cousin, will STRIKE)