Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

This is about mid to late war supply - not supply at the start of the war. We are trying to ensure that there is enough supply for the USA later in the game without them having a huge excess early on.

I realize this, but if the Allied player does not bust a nut throwing supply around early, there will be oodles later. Anyway, big operations should require much time and effort to get off the ground...the stock game makes it too easy, just add water, stir and voila, supplies!

Your option three is doable?

I don't necessarily agreee about the "oodles later" part. At the very least, as I mentioned above, the Allied AI appears to have problems with the current US supply levels in the mid to late war period, so it needs to be boosted for that reason alone. There should not be supply or fuel shortages later in the game for the USA - that is my view, anyway.

I think Don's method is the best one.

I agree Don's LCU excess supply method looks best.

Since I am currently playing a PBEM as Allies using CHS (1.01 I think) would it be interesting to record the supply levels at various places as I go on? The game is at late Jan 1942 right now and I am starting to swim in most of the important rear areas ... but I can provide actual figures if that would be useful.

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

I agree Don's LCU excess supply method looks best.

Since I am currently playing a PBEM as Allies using CHS (1.01 I think) would it be interesting to record the supply levels at various places as I go on? The game is at late Jan 1942 right now and I am starting to swim in most of the important rear areas ... but I can provide actual figures if that would be useful.

The more information the better, but the really interesting data would be from 1943-1945.

LOL yes. I'll be with you in about 2008 ...

It might be worth asking someone who has got to late war in their PBEM what the supply situation is like. There are a few people like this, looking at the AAR forum. Of course they are playing stock, but it would still be useful IMHO, if only to confirm that they have a vast excess.

I have a question for the folks here. I take it from what people say on this board that heavy industry no longer produces 1.25 supply points per resource point. Because if they did each resource center produces 2.25 supply per resource point produced if the resources are used. Payback for 1000 resource centers (1000 used to simplify the math) would be:

1000 resource center repairs = 1000000 supply consumed
1000 resource centers = 1000 supply
1000 resource points = 1250 supply points from heavy industry production
1000000 supply / 1000 +1250 supply points = 445 days for payback

Is it correct then that heavy industry doesn't produce supply points per pg 179 of the manual. Is it a house rule that resource points from repaired centers can never be used?

I have a possible solution that on its face might be the simplest method. Many agree that loading and unloading times is the real culprit here and not availability of supply. Since we can't change the code why not simply cut Merchant ships max speeds to 6 in 1942 and have them upgrade to 12 or whatever in early 1943? That would double the steaming time thus cutting in half the total amount of supply that can be moved out in 1942. This would simulate the extra time needed to load and unload at the primitive facilities early in the war.

In my current game it is available shipping that prevents me from moving out my 999,999 supply stockpiled in SF, even with their current max speeds of 11-15 I find I sit for months waiting for ships to return. So by cutting their speed to 6 you achieve your goal of reducing the amount of supply available at front line bases without non-historically crippling the arsenal of democracies total supply output. I mean common there was NEVER a problem with supplies available to the USA in WWII. Even at the outset in 1941, the USA had the best supplied armies in the world. The problem was getting all those supplies where they were needed. By 1943 this was no longer a problem, so the ships speeds would have to be upgraded probably in late 1942.

Jim

ORIGINAL: CobraAus

All existing AK class over 2000 get reduced to 50% of current values.

Those with three upgrades:
First upgrade- 75%
Second Upgrade- 85%
Third upgrade- 90%

Two upgrades:
First upgrade- 80%
Second upgrade- 90%

I need an interpretation of what you are after here - there are 2 ways that this can be applied
example 1
using class 419 Aus AK 1941 capacity is 4250 -50% = 2125 capacity in 1941
1942 upgrade = 75% increase in capacity = 3719 capacity in 1942
1943 upgrade can go 2 ways 85% increase applied to 1942 result = 6880 capacity
or 85% increase applied to 1941 start point = 3931 capacity
1944 upgrade can also go 2 ways
90% increase applied to 1942 result = 13071 capacity
or 90% increase applied to 1941 start point = 4037 capacity

which way are you looking to go to get result you are after
+ have another look at the 50% reduction on ships between 2000 and 5000
+ I would not come below 5000 for those ships above that mark you will upset the Large AK
upgrade section of game ie AK to MLE upgrade

Cobra Aus

Sorry about the confusion... use the original value as the reference point, thus a 4250 would be 2125 (50%), then 3187 (75%), then 3612 (85%) and so on. Do we then go to 95% then 100%?? Do all vessels need multible upgrades?

Also I would rather expect that smaller cargo vessels would be more effeciently used from the beginning because they are not really capable of trasporting large, heavy, bulky items like tanks, artillery pieces, and more suited to bulk cargo like food stuffs. Indeed, the Sherman remained in production for a variety of reasons, one was the ease in shipping. To bad the game does not differentiate this!

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

I agree Don's LCU excess supply method looks best.

Since I am currently playing a PBEM as Allies using CHS (1.01 I think) would it be interesting to record the supply levels at various places as I go on? The game is at late Jan 1942 right now and I am starting to swim in most of the important rear areas ... but I can provide actual figures if that would be useful.

Strange, I am playing agaisnt the AI as allied and I am having problems getting anything into the S. Pacific. Of course I am also playing with 60 +- on my reenforcements. So maybe it is the lack of cargo vessels early.... Right now the only bases that has ample supplies are PH and all the West Coast bases.

which way are you looking to go to get result you are after
+ have another look at the 50% reduction on ships between 2000 and 5000
+ I would not come below 5000 for those ships above that mark you will upset the Large AK
upgrade section of game ie AK to MLE upgrade
OK I thought the second option was the right on + any opion on the above message

Cobra Aus

ORIGINAL: CobraAus

which way are you looking to go to get result you are after
+ have another look at the 50% reduction on ships between 2000 and 5000
+ I would not come below 5000 for those ships above that mark you will upset the Large AK
upgrade section of game ie AK to MLE upgrade
OK I thought the second option was the right on + any opion on the above message

Cobra Aus

Yet again another nasty game feasture raises it's head. Had forgotten completely about the auxillary (AD, AE, AR, etc.) conversions. I take it that the ability to morph AK's is based upon the cargo capacity. Now this is a real stinker... It was the larger capacity that needed reduced. Any other suggestion out there, or is the only other ship option the speed change suggested earlier in this thread??

Yet again another nasty game feasture raises it's head. Had forgotten completely about the auxillary (AD, AE, AR, etc.) conversions. I take it that the ability to morph AK's is based upon the cargo capacity. Now this is a real stinker... It was the larger capacity that needed reduced. Any other suggestion out there, or is the only other ship option the speed change suggested earlier in this thread??

I can still proceed and dont go below 5000 for the larger Ak + at same time reduce the speed
in 41 and raise at each refit
any other suggestion as to 41 speed reduction by what factor and what how much to increase
per refit -I think it was suggested to bring down to 6 knots but again we may need a sliding
scale both ways

Cobra Aus

To steer the subject back to US supply/fuel levels...

Firstly - I think I made a major error in my assumptions: A resource centre produces 1.25 resources, not supplies, per turn. So much for all of my calculations above - they are wrong.

However I am going to make one more attempt to come up with a possible system for creating gradually increasing US supply throughout the game. This one is a bit radical though - it is more of a thought experiment:

Change the December 1941 starting values for industry in the USA as follows:

Resource centres from 5,360 to 5,000
Heavy Industry from 3,270 to 12,000 (yes, 12,000)
Oil centres from 650 to 1,180

These will generate about 11,000 supply points and 7,000 fuel points per turn, if my calculations are correct (BIG IF!!).

In addition, the daily supply and daily fuel points are changed as follows:

Daily supply from 25,500 to 28,000
Daily fuel from 24,000 to 26,000

Adding all this together, the starting values for supplies/fuel points at the start of the scenario will change as follows:

Supply: from about 34,000 to about 39,000
Fuel: from about 27,000 to 33,000

The excess HI are distributed amongst 10 North American bases, 600 per base. These 10 bases also start with 500 damages resource centres and 100 damaged oil centres. Each of the bases is given a port value so the HI will produce fuel as well as supplies.

Each day, at each base, 1 resource centre and 1 oil centre can be repaired at each of the 10 bases. These repairs occur concurrently, so after 500 days all 500 resoure centres and 100 oil centres will be repaired, at a total investment of 600,000 supply points. At that time, each of the 10 bases will be generating an additional 1,100 supply points and 700 fuel points per day, bringing the US supply/fuel production totals to about 50,000/40,000 per day, which is about equal to the production level in the stock scenarios.

Note that the starting supply level is higher (39,000 vs 34,000), but the Allied player could be spending up to 20,000 supply points per day on facility repair, which would leave 14,000 supply points per day to use elsewhere for the first three months of the game - a BIG drop from 34,000.

The break even point for these expenditures would be about 545 days - less than two years - making them definitely worthwhile.

These are only very quick, back of the envelope calculations (literally) so they may be completely off. But does this idea look any better? There are a couple of potential problems:

- No excess resources in North America any more. Is this a problem though? Does anyone ship resources from NA elsewhere?

- Eventually there will be LOTS of additional HI points being generated. Is this a problem?

Thoughts??

Andrew

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior
Strange, I am playing agaisnt the AI as allied and I am having problems getting anything into the S. Pacific. Of course I am also playing with 60 +- on my reenforcements. So maybe it is the lack of cargo vessels early.... Right now the only bases that has ample supplies are PH and all the West Coast bases.

I suppose it depends what you mean by "swimming". At this stage of the war I regard it as 20,000+, enough to get air replacements and upgrades working ...

Due to the very aggressive nature of my opponent I am not shipping large amounts of anything to the South Pacific right now, or indeed any region where he might possibly invade. I was talking about the rear areas, namely West Coast, Hawaii, Southern Australia and India.

Sydney and Melbourne are at 30,000+ and Brisbane is nearing 20,000. Bombay and PH have 100,000 odd, Colombo 20,000+ and the Calcutta/Dacca area bases are all at c.20,000.

I have shipped oil from the DEI to Australia which has made a big difference. There is more on the way from the West Coast too. Similarly, what little surplus there is at the Middle East has gone to India. It is my plan to try and keep the local industries going at full blast as much as possible. Later on the plan would be to ship surplus US oil to India via Perth.

The United States gusher seems hardly troubled and supplies there have not dipped below 800,000 for ages. SF and LA seem to fluctuate between 80,000 & 120,000 whilst Seattle and San Diego do the same between 60,000 and 80,000. Anchorage is at 35,000 or so and Panama City at c.40,000.

My only problems with getting supplies out have been at Johnston Island, Midway and Canton Island, but that may have something to do with the presence of some inconvenient Japanese aircraft carriers ...

AKs are not in short supply anywhere. In fact I would say that I could not possibly use all that I have. My method is to send large (or large enough) infrequent convoys BTW.

The date is 25th January 1942. Reinforcements are at +- 15 days.

Since reduced supply generation and reduced AK/AP capacity is a feature in more than one mod version. (CHS/Pry's/mine etc) I have been running an AI/AI test of my own to test Andrew's theory since this could impact all the mods.

My mod mirror's Pry's in terms of AK/AP cargo capacity reduction. For auto supply generation, Los Angeles and Bombay have been eliminated as auto supply centers. The primary Allied auto generators consist of: (Supply per day/fuel per day)

San Francisco: 12500/12500
Karachi: 3750/2250.

Supply situation as of 2/43

Supply generators

Karachi: 577765/598109
San Francisco: 999999/999999

Hotspot/forward bases by theater

Southeast Asia

Chadpur: 369709/57353
Imphal: 9436
Akyab: 57371/103995

SouthPacific

Noumea: 45982/106517
Luganaville: 11571*/6581

SouthWest Pacific

Port Morosby: 32263/129384
Gili Gili: 5289*/61583
Buna: 2764**/3598
Brisbane: 29448/31170

Central Pacific

Pearl Harbor: 85201/466447
Midway: 1498/519

* - indicates supply shortage (orange warning indicator)
** - indicates severe supply shortage (red warning indicator)

Summary

Dont see an indication as of yet that the supply and capacity alterations are creating an Allied bottleneck. The Allied rear areas and supply producers are swimming in logistics. Only in SWPac area are two forward point bases in trouble and this is probably due to enemy activity as the Japan side is still fighitng hard and GG and Buna have had their auto supply status turned to 'off' by the AI as a result.

Will keep running the test into late war and track the supply status.

I think that reduced transport capacity is the way to go. Why restrict supply in USA when you can reduce the flow to overseas by restricting transport capacity. If later war increase is needed, why not have the AKs that arrive later have larger capcity ??

I think that reduced transport capacity is the way to go. Why restrict supply in USA when you can reduce the flow to overseas by restricting transport capacity. If later war increase is needed, why not have the AKs that arrive later have larger capcity ??

This has now been carried out - took awhile but before sending out for testing I am looking
also at the suggested speed reduction across the AK's - a 6 knot reduction was suggested
but when looking at speeds 4 knot reduction in both top speed and cruise to be applied all Ak's start of game increase by 2 knots 420900 refit and back to normal speed 430900 refit
before doing this will await comments and suggestions on how this will effect game
over to you guys ???

Nice idea !! I was just thinking about capacity..never thought about speed ! [8D]

Will reduced speed make the AK's more vulnerable to sub and/or air attack? In real life the answer is yes, but how about in the game?

yes. it will

Maybe just make the ships to grow in capacity when upgrading ?? Is that possible ?