Matrix Games Forums

I've been a wargamer for years. I even bought Panthers in the Shadows just for the manual. I purchased two or three board wargames and dreamed about playing those amazingly detailed games but never had any friends who were into that.

I personally have never understood the allure of PBEM. When I play a game, i want to play it right "now" - for as short or as long of a period of time as I want. PBEM, to me, slows down and somewhat ruins the enjoyment. I had a few Crown of Glory PBEM games going and they were somewhat fun but when the turn got back to me after a day or five, the flow of the game was just not there. I played numerous games against the A.I. while waiting for those PBEM turns and those were much more enjoyable. Now, I've played TACOPs on a LAN with a roommate and love to play some direct TCP/IP games but PBEM, even if both/all players are playing and sending turns on a gaming night, is just too slow and, for me, just doesnt cut it.

PBEM is nice for 1) competition, and 2) a decent game with unexpected results. Unless the AI is really smart (which it never is), AI provides a challenge for only a limited amount of time, unless of course it's cheating.

The one game I've played where the AI never ceases to amaze me is in Highway to the Reich. Puts up a good fight every time. This is also due to the play balance put in by the scenario designers.

HPS engine does an ok job too.

PBEM is nice for competition, yes - but that isn't what I'm after. I get plenty of that professionally. A decent game with unexpected results? It depends on the game, how many times I've played the scenario, etc.

I think the allure is to find a level at which you have to play reasonably well, but if you do, you will win. This is NOT a competition thing, it's an enjoyment thing.

For example, in my latest WitP game I rather optimistically sent a pair of carriers against what I thought (hoped, really) was a pair of Japanese carriers. When it turned out to be all 6 of their fleet carriers, I lost both of mine. Fine, I can handle that. The fun thing now is trying to recover and first hold Guadalcanal, then reconquer the rest of the South Pacific. The AI is fine and dandy for giving me a game, you see, I don't have to worry about getting a turn done in a timely manner, I can play at my own pace when I like and still have fun.

I hate generalisations, so I'm going to make one [:'(]. Those who have enjoyed the PBEM experience will love it, and say so loud and often, unable to believe that others feel differently. This is generally a gregarious and talkative group, (otherwise they wouldn't find the style attractive in the first place) so therefore they will be the ones making most of the posts in the various fora. I have no problem with this, provided the game's evolution is not skewed away from attempting to provide good solo play.

Steve.

Not me. If the AI in TOAW could deal with me, I'd virtually never play PBEM. There is a social aspect to it, which I enjoy, but for me it's all about the gaming. I like playing what I want, when I want, and if I feel like stopping, or dropping a game, or switching sides/restarting, it's fine. I prefer solo for that. My problem is that I can set the AI to max, give the computer a +2, and still kick the living hells out of it *every* single time. I have soloed through some scenarios, and found myself freezing the computers turns, and actually going in and moving it's units to the 'proper' locations, sending the reinforcements to the proper front, attacking my weak flanks, (and defending the computer's flanks, which it has NO idea how to do). I realized I'd be better off just playing both sides of the game myself from the get-go, so why not PBEM? I have done a PBEM game of High Command (once!) and the person involved got me to try TOAW. This is the only game I have ever played PBEM. I do it because, quite frankly, I'll never enjoy TOAW again otherwise. I'd prefer to hotseat it (social gaming, like sitting around the old 3R board with my buddies), but unless Norm and Matrix can *really* boost the AI, there simply is no possibility of the PO giving me any sort of a challenge, even when I dummy-down my play.

From roughly 5 years of involvement with TOAW in forums, and several years running the TOAW section at SZO, I can say that this is true for 99% of all PBEM gamers. There are a few scenarios I have come across that are viable vs. PO, but these were strictly designed with that in mind. I wish there were more of them. [&o]

I personally have never understood the allure of PBEM. When I play a game, i want to play it right "now" - for as short or as long of a period of time as I want.

I had much trouble trying to persuade friends to get into TOAW due to the slow PBEM system. Hopefully TCP/IP kicks in this time around, and people won't have much excuse anymore to avoid it.

ORIGINAL: Pippin

I personally have never understood the allure of PBEM. When I play a game, i want to play it right "now" - for as short or as long of a period of time as I want.

I had much trouble trying to persuade friends to get into TOAW due to the slow PBEM system. Hopefully TCP/IP kicks in this time around, and people won't have much excuse anymore to avoid it.

TCP/IP could do the trick for small to medium scenarios and neighbouring time zones.

You'll have a hard time however playing TCP/IP with players spread all over the time zones, all the more as you just won't do your turns in one sitting with certain scenarios.

Anyway, I feel the whole PBEM/solitaire argument is in fact a moot point: let's improve the PO, by all means, so that it presents a more credible challenge, it certainly won't hurt [;)]

ORIGINAL: Lava

ORIGINAL: Nemo69

I think you're misrepresenting PBEM and the gamers that use it.

No, not at all.

As a matter of fact I'm not representing or misrepresenting anything or anyone, just stating my preferences and my experiences.

My bad then.

You know, when I was a kid, we used to play cowboys and indians. It didn't matter who "won", it was all about having fun. As I became an adult, entering into a "competitive" society, I felt I needed to "prove" something, but I left that to my public life. In my private life, I enjoyed playing with others, but all too frequently ran into those "grogs" and "rule lawyers" that just really turned me off. One had to be really carefull about picking your "friends" such that gaming was a matter of fun, not a competition of who ow3ed who. I am quite sure that one can easily find good, fun opponents to play PBEM and have no doubt there are lots of people who enjoy doing so. Kewl, but I just can't be bothered. When I sit down I want to play.. not pour over a single move of a game which might stretch for weeks, if not months. As a mature adult (also known as an old fart), I find myself leaning more and more towards the "kid" viewpoint.

Obviously, we had quite different experiences when engaging in PBEM. God knows I love friendly competition but work and family put strict limits on my gaming time so I wouldn't be bothered to play if I didn't find it fun in the first place.

Yeah, I played cowboys and indians a lot too [;)]

ORIGINAL: Lava
If it's fun, who cares who wins.

Ditto, be it a ladder game or not.

ORIGINAL: Lava

As for the AI in TOAW, I think it does a reasonably good job.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one [:)]

Well, it's fair to say I've not played TOAW as a PBEM, but I fail to see the difference in this respect to any other wargame. Each to their own, I guess! [:)]

Steve.

@Nemo69

Actually, though I am not a PBEMer, I'm thankfull you lot have kept up with the game and I am sure your experience and indepth knowledge will greatly assist in making TOAW - The Matrix Edition an even better game.

Ray (alias Lava)