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RE: Allied aircraft production figures
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:18 am
by RETIRED
ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
All aspects of US production were staggering, the game completely fails to recreate that.
Jim
AMEN! Between January of 1941 and August of 1945, the US produced 306,090 Aircraft. Japan produced 69,882. Engine production was even more impressive with the US producing 786,648 to Japan's 116,597. The ratio in "airframe weight" was over 8:1 in favor of the US. The US not only produced a lot more A/C, but larger, stronger, better protected, and more heavily armed A/C. The same staggering one-sidedness applies to pilots, aircrew, and ground support personnel. By 1944 the US was cutting back drastically on training, and increasing the "acceptance" qualifications. At the same time, the Japanese were massively lowering standards as well as the length and quality of training.
RE: Allied aircraft production figures
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:33 am
by treespider
This thread started by showing total US Production in the game as something like c. 120,000 aircraft.
How many AC IRL were shipped to the Pacific theater?
I am not concerned with the hypothetical Japanese production ...just the difference beteween IRL US production sent to the Pacific vs. what the game provides....Has this been analyized?
RE: Allied aircraft production figures
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:43 am
by RETIRED
By number it seems to have been about 35%, but by value and construction costs is was less as most of the expensive 4-engined bombers went to Europe (except for the B-29's), while the great majority of Naval A/C went to the Pacific. Approximately 30% overall of the US Production Effort went to the Pacific cost-wise, though it varied from year to year.
RE: Allied aircraft production figures
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:31 pm
by Jim D Burns
ORIGINAL: RETIRED
By number it seems to have been about 35%, but by value and construction costs is was less as most of the expensive 4-engined bombers went to Europe (except for the B-29's), while the great majority of Naval A/C went to the Pacific. Approximately 30% overall of the US Production Effort went to the Pacific cost-wise, though it varied from year to year.
It was a lot more dynamic than that for air assets since by mid 1944 we had complete air superiority in Europe. Losses fell off dramatically there so more like 50%-60% of our aircraft production was going to the Pacific by then. Early on the figure was probably about 30%-35%, but by mid to late 43 it was probably as high as 40%-45% of total air production since it was much more of an air war theatre than Europe.
Jim
RE: Allied aircraft production figures
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:35 pm
by Jim D Burns
ORIGINAL: treespider
This thread started by showing total US Production in the game as something like c. 120,000 aircraft.
Remember about 80% of those "produced" aircraft are going to be obsolete when they are made. I guess a better example would be to just give a multiple of 6-8 months for fixed non-upgradeable factories. That would be a lot more realistic than multiplying them by the total months in the game I guess.
Jim
RE: Allied aircraft production figures
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:57 pm
by VSWG
Would it be possible to scratch Allied aircraft production / replacement rate alltogether and instead create massive amounts of large replenishment squadrons? They could provide replacements with pinpoint accuracy: at the correct time the correct model in the correct quantity. It would also prohibit the tactic of drawing planes from the pool at obscure places (especially the "downgrade an airgroup in San Francisco - immediately draw their planes from pool in India" tactic).
Are enough slots available? Can replenishment squadrons refill LBA, too? Just an idea...
RE: Allied aircraft production figures
Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:07 pm
by Jim D Burns
Ok I did it, here is the breakdown for the number of fixed factories and upgradable factories:
Start date.....Total factories.....Fixed factories.....Upgradeable factories...Months in production
Start............1656...................1316...................340.............................45
Jan42...........315....................165.....................150..............................44
Mar42...........50.....................50.......................0..................................42
Jun42...........200....................100.....................100..............................39
Jul42............90.....................90.......................0...................................38
Sep42..........30......................30......................0....................................36
Oct42..........100.....................20......................80...................................35
Dec42..........110...................110.....................0.....................................33
Jan43..........643....................393.....................250.................................32
Feb43..........150...................150......................0......................................31
Mar43..........20.....................20.......................0......................................30
Apr43..........150....................150.....................0......................................29
May43.........100....................100.....................0......................................28
Jun43..........90......................90......................0......................................27
Jul43...........754....................754....................0......................................26
Sep43..........395....................320...................75....................................24
Oct43...........55.....................55.....................0......................................23
Nov43...........300...................300...................0......................................22
Dec43...........194...................194...................0......................................21
Jan44............155...................155..................0......................................20
Mar44...........105....................30...................75....................................18
Apr44...........180....................105.................75....................................17
May44...........90.....................90...................0......................................16
Jun44............50.....................50...................0......................................15
Jul44.............50.....................50...................0......................................14
Sep44...........150...................75...................75....................................12
Dec44...........40.....................40...................0.....................................9
Jan45...........90.....................50....................0......................................8
So if we multiply fixed factories by 8 months we get 40,416 air frames. We then get another 41,925 air frames by multiplying non-fixed factories by the total number of months they are in production for a total of 82,341 allied air frames that can be considered competitive air frames at the time of their production.
Don't like the figure of 8 months? Just add or subtract 5,052 air frames by the number of months you want to change that figure by.
Of these about 60% would be US planes for a total US production of about 49,405 competative air frames for the entire game.
Edit: oops caught a mistake numbers have been slightly revised.
Jim
RE: Allied aircraft production figures
Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:35 am
by mc3744
A quick and uninformed comment.
I just finished "The reluctant Admiral", a (very good) Yamamoto biography.
According to this book Yamamoto has always been convinced that Japan could stand the Allied power for 6 months for sure and probably (at most) for 12-18 months.
The reason for his belief was exactly the production capacity. He kept questioning the establishment about Japan production capacity to try and dissuade them from entering into the conflict. He even talked himself with Japanese business men to induce them to increase airframes and engines production.
Hence the game should definitely reduce the Japanese production capacity and/or increase the US one. That is if we want a more precise simulation.
But this wouldn't necessarily make for a better game.
I keep loosing Jap opponents, I'm not sure that making the Allies more powerful would end up in a beter gaming experience.
Just my two cents
RE: Allied aircraft production figures
Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:01 pm
by treespider
Since this hasn't seem to have been posted yet....here are the IRL Total US production figures:
Fighters - 1942-1945 - 94372
Bombers - 1942-1945 - 93072
Recon - 1942-1945 - 3918
Transport - 1942-1945 - 23233
Trainers - 1942-1945 - 46456
US Military Aircraft production 1942- 1945
279813
Total 1939-1945 - 324750
These figures are for the TOTAL US production. The source is:
World War II: A Statistical Survey by John Ellis.
Jim's analysis suggested a total of 49405 competitive airframes for the entire war. Is this just fighters or fighters and bombers?
In a separate post Jim suggested that A/C allocation to the Pacific would have been on the order of 35% in 1942 up to 50-60% by 1945. If we allocate 50% of IRL US aircraft production to the Pacific we arrive at
47186 fighters and 46536 bombers. This is a total of 93722 fighters and bombers being allocated to the Pacific assuming a 50% allocation rate. So if Jim's competitive airframes are just fighters then the production figures for the US seem pretty accurate.
RE: Allied aircraft production figures
Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:35 pm
by Jim D Burns
ORIGINAL: treespider
Jim's analysis suggested a total of 49405 competitive airframes for the entire war. Is this just fighters or fighters and bombers?
This figure is for everything, fighters, bombers, patrol, recon, transport. You name it it's in there.
Jim
RE: Allied aircraft production figures
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:09 am
by treespider
ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
Ok I did it, here is the breakdown for the number of fixed factories and upgradable factories:
Start date.....Total factories.....Fixed factories.....Upgradeable factories...Months in production
Start............1656...................1316...................340.............................45
Jan42...........315....................165.....................150..............................44
Mar42...........50.....................50.......................0..................................42
Jun42...........200....................100.....................100..............................39
Jul42............90.....................90.......................0...................................38
Sep42..........30......................30......................0....................................36
Oct42..........100.....................20......................80...................................35
Dec42..........110...................110.....................0.....................................33
Jan43..........643....................393.....................250.................................32
Feb43..........150...................150......................0......................................31
Mar43..........20.....................20.......................0......................................30
Apr43..........150....................150.....................0......................................29
May43.........100....................100.....................0......................................28
Jun43..........90......................90......................0......................................27
Jul43...........754....................754....................0......................................26
Sep43..........395....................320...................75....................................24
Oct43...........55.....................55.....................0......................................23
Nov43...........300...................300...................0......................................22
Dec43...........194...................194...................0......................................21
Jan44............155...................155..................0......................................20
Mar44...........105....................30...................75....................................18
Apr44...........180....................105.................75....................................17
May44...........90.....................90...................0......................................16
Jun44............50.....................50...................0......................................15
Jul44.............50.....................50...................0......................................14
Sep44...........150...................75...................75....................................12
Dec44...........40.....................40...................0.....................................9
Jan45...........90.....................50....................0......................................8
So if we multiply fixed factories by 8 months we get 40,416 air frames. We then get another 41,925 air frames by multiplying non-fixed factories by the total number of months they are in production for a total of 82,341 allied air frames that can be considered competitive air frames at the time of their production.
Don't like the figure of 8 months? Just add or subtract 5,052 air frames by the number of months you want to change that figure by.
Of these about 60% would be US planes for a total US production of about 49,405 competative air frames for the entire game.
Edit: oops caught a mistake numbers have been slightly revised.
Jim
In revisiting your analysis there is a flaw... you make the assumption of using 8 months.
The problem with this is you have planes like the TBM Avenger. It will not upgrade to anything else, nor will the units using it. It enters the game 7/43 with a rate of 200...at your 8 month calculation we would get 1600. However it will remain in production until the end (or 26 months) providing us with an additional 3600 aircraft or a total build out of 5200.
Or take the F4U-1D which enter the game 1/44 with a rate of 100. Your 8 month calculation provides 800 however it will reamin in production until the end (or 20 months) providing us with an additional 1200 aircraft. For a total build out of 2000 aircraft.
Likewise the F4U-1 enters the game on 2/43 however it will not be able to upgrade for at least 11-12 months and will likely remain in service for longer.
I feel you need to revisit your analysis...I'm not suggesting that US production accurate but it is probably closer to IRL than you think.
RE: Allied aircraft production figures
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:03 am
by Jim D Burns
ORIGINAL: treespider
but it is probably closer to IRL than you think.
Oh Jesus, I give up. All the friggin Japanese fanboys will question ANYTHING that threatens their fun till the damn cows come home.
This is an estimate, there are planes that went longer or shorter than the damn 8 months. I even told you how many air frames to add if you don’t like my 8 month estimate.
It is OBVIOUS the US is neutered, you don’t want to admit it fine I can’t force you to see reality.
If you want to do a plane by plane comparison YOU DO IT. I’m fed up with the whining Japanese.
Jim
RE: Allied aircraft production figures
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:47 am
by ctangus
Chill, Jim. Tree's never struck me as a JFB - seems to me he's a get-it-accurate fanboi.
ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
If you want to do a plane by plane comparison YOU DO IT.
You did start this thread. If you want to assert or prove allied aircraft production is too low, it's not unreasonable to ask you to do further analysis on it. I don't myself consider the issue a handicap or game-breaking (or I'd do the number-crunching myself), but I'd be interested. (If you do more analysis, please factor in the +/- 400 planes a month via airgroups.)
My impression is the allies are
slightly under-represented, and largely so in at least one key type (F6Fs).
BTW, before you send JFB accusations my way, I only play allies.
RE: Allied aircraft production figures
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:19 am
by Mike Scholl
ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
ORIGINAL: treespider
This thread started by showing total US Production in the game as something like c. 120,000 aircraft.
Remember about 80% of those "produced" aircraft are going to be obsolete when they are made. I guess a better example would be to just give a multiple of 6-8 months for fixed non-upgradeable factories. That would be a lot more realistic than multiplying them by the total months in the game I guess.
Jim
This seems to be the key "point of contention" in the discussion. Because of the game's idiotic production system, the Allies will get lots of A/C...., and a big pile of them will be useless garbage. What good is having a lot of Brewster Buffalos in the pool in 1944? Some means of deciding just when, and which A/C should be considered "superflous junk" in the totals needs to be arrived at if this matter is to be discussed intelligently. Jim's suggestion of 8 months might or might not be accurate, but it seems to be in the vacinity of the "ballpark". And given that only the Japanese were given much in the way of ability to change and improve their A/C output, 2x3 might have at least gotten the allied production closer to the correct numbers and types arriving at any one time. Calling one another "fanboys" won't solve the basic problem of getting the numbers right.
RE: Allied aircraft production figures
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:42 am
by dtravel
ORIGINAL: ctangus
(If you do more analysis, please factor in the +/- 400 planes a month via airgroups.)
I just looked at the Allied Air Unit Reinforcement Schedule. I see only two months in which the Allies get more than around 200 planes. Most months its less than 100.
Quite frankly the numbers of planes the Allies get in their Reinforcement units are a drop in the bucket. They are not a significant factor.
RE: Allied aircraft production figures
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:51 am
by aztez
ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
ORIGINAL: treespider
This thread started by showing total US Production in the game as something like c. 120,000 aircraft.
Remember about 80% of those "produced" aircraft are going to be obsolete when they are made. I guess a better example would be to just give a multiple of 6-8 months for fixed non-upgradeable factories. That would be a lot more realistic than multiplying them by the total months in the game I guess.
Jim
This seems to be the key "point of contention" in the discussion. Because of the game's idiotic production system, the Allies will get lots of A/C...., and a big pile of them will be useless garbage. What good is having a lot of Brewster Buffalos in the pool in 1944? Some means of deciding just when, and which A/C should be considered "superflous junk" in the totals needs to be arrived at if this matter is to be discussed intelligently. Jim's suggestion of 8 months might or might not be accurate, but it seems to be in the vacinity of the "ballpark". And given that only the Japanese were given much in the way of ability to change and improve their A/C output, 2x3 might have at least gotten the allied production closer to the correct numbers and types arriving at any one time. Calling one another "fanboys" won't solve the basic problem of getting the numbers right.
Amen. Well said Mike.
RE: Allied aircraft production figures
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:52 am
by FeurerKrieg
Has anyone done a plane by plane analysis to find out how many of each plane model was produced, and going a step farther, how many were ship to the PTO?
Maybe that is a project someone could organize and people could pick a plane they will research and then the organizer can compile the info. Or did CHS or RHS already do this?
Even if a given model stopped production, it is really no big deal if that model is continued to be produced in game since if it is obsolete, it is unlikely it will get used (and if they do get used, then chalk it up to the Allies cranking up production since time are desparate).
RE: Allied aircraft production figures
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:46 am
by Jim D Burns
Sorry Treespider I was venting and the jist of my post wasn't really aimed at you personally. Just seems like I'm talking to a brick wall sometimes. To me it's obvious the US is way underrepresented, so doing a plane by plane analysis seemed like an utter waste of time.
Here's an interesting read:
http://www.history.navy.mil/download/ww2-7.pdf
Of note is the numbers for naval aviation roles at the time of Okinawa:
Naval Aviation now numbered
41,000 aircraft, 60,000 pilots,
33,000 nonpilot officers, and almost
338,000 enlisted personnel.
41,000 aircraft. Even if only half were in the Pacific, that's over 20,000 naval aircraft in operation in the Pacific after years of heavy losses had already taken their toll and air losses had begun to diminish dramatically. But I bet a lot more than half were in the Pacific by the time Okinawa rolled around.
Note the number of extra pilots, I doubt the US even gets half of 60,000 pilots for all services for the entire game combined.
Jim
RE: Allied aircraft production figures
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:56 am
by tabpub
ORIGINAL: dtravel
ORIGINAL: ctangus
(If you do more analysis, please factor in the +/- 400 planes a month via airgroups.)
I just looked at the Allied Air Unit Reinforcement Schedule. I see only two months in which the Allies get more than around 200 planes. Most months its less than 100.
Quite frankly the numbers of planes the Allies get in their Reinforcement units are a drop in the bucket. They are not a significant factor.
Ok, the next time you play allied, then just send back all the carriers that you get as "reinforcements" and their associated air groups as they are insignificant.
And regarding the LBA reinforcement schedule, I think that you need to check again; you must have had a filter or two toggled. 2 months over 200? Most under 100? I will agree on eyeballing it that most months in 43 are between 100 and 200, but there are some that are positively silly, especially in late 43/early 44.
RE: Allied aircraft production figures
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:03 am
by Jim D Burns