Matrix Games Forums

Originally posted by Baron von Beergut:
I'd say czerpak is on to a good idea which would allow all aspects of the game. But it might take unreasonably long to complete a tourney going the full game length.
Since someone is going to take the time, trouble & effort to put together a game design for this tourney though, I'd say it's their tourney and they can/should dictate how it's run. So how 'bout we do their design for the initial tourney and then for the next level of play-offs use czerpak's idea with the '41 scenario in mirror games? Possibly also set a liberal time limit and if the game isn't complete by then, take some sort of score at that time. BvB

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sure the game length is a problem, but from other side I think we all play PBEM campaigns anyway, so why not score them ?
For all interested :
Blitzkrieg Wargaming Club has a Classic Ladder and WiR is being considered to be introduced there. But thats for the future.
Maciej

I think the idea of a ladder is an excellent one. Play it so that in registered games if you beat someone higher up the ladder you go to their position on the ladder and they to yours with house rules being standard and what scenario or game the two people want to play being up to them.
That is what they do in snooker clubs.
Josan and Lorenzo can fight out with whoever wants to for the top positions on the ladder, and the rest of us can enjoy the pleasures and pain of minor victories and defeats at the lower friendlier levels of ladder life.
All we need is someone to mannage the ladder - Nemesis? Still interested?

Blitzkrieg Wargaming Club


What is the site address for this club czerpak?

Thanks.

Originally posted by Muzrub:
Blitzkrieg Wargaming Club


What is the site address for this club czerpak?

Thanks.

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club is pretty cool. I got good opponents for my Steel Panthers games there.
They have the best organization and rules among all wargaming clubs I know.
If some of you join and bombard them on the Classic Ladder Message Board with posts about WiR I think it will help.
But you can also find nice staff about other wargames.Blitzkrieg Wargaming Club

[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: czerpak ]</p>

Thanks mate

Originally posted by czerpak:


Nick,
I appreciate your effort to give us an easy way to play a contest, but I want to underline one very important thing : WiR, IMHO, is a CAMPAIGN game (STRATEGY). Which means for me, that playing with production, taking care of other fronts and allied bombing (for Germans), upgrading system ( I plan upgrades long ahead and never allow computer do this). At the end of the day playing short scenario will be just tactical skills contest ( also interesting and I will join for sure, although I already won one quick tournament - thanks Nick <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> ).

Maciej aka Czerpak

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I don´t agree altough I understand your point. We all have diffrent ways to play so it would be almost impossible to call a winner based on a fair basis.

I still support Lokis idea. A mirror scenario for let us say 25 turns would show who is the best player around.

Originally posted by Muzrub:
Thanks mate

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You are always welcome.
BTW, by accident I found your dispute with Sven in other forum. I can lease you some of mine He-177 so you can go and bomb bastard.
My grandpa fought in Anders's army and had a friends - polish soldiers fighting in Tobruk and they said only good things about Australians.
Maciej

Originally posted by Kuniworth:



I don´t agree altough I understand your point. We all have diffrent ways to play so it would be almost impossible to call a winner based on a fair basis.

I still support Lokis idea. A mirror scenario for let us say 25 turns would show who is the best player around.

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I think a contest is really about whose way is the best.
And I already said (I think) I want to take part in Loki's contest.
This two ideas (mine and Loki's) do not exclude each other, they are ruther complementary (I'm not sure if this is right word for what I mean)

I think to make a tournament a short term scenario would be needed.I agree with Loki scenario or for those who wants to play the 41 campaign we can do the german attack (till december 41 ) that is 24 turns and see the results achieved. Next the side is reversed and the acchievements compared to find a winner.However, doing 2 games to find a winner can be result in 2 real months. The "Great Final" would be 1 year. Maybe too much time.

I agree with Loki mirror scenario, but there is a problem. How is possible to know if a scenario is balanced?
I think we can order to the computer to play against itself. So if the results is 50 %... No, the computer defends better than attacks. And too, may be &#8220;holes&#8221; that a human can see, but not the computer.
The only way is playing human vs human a lot of times. And this will cost time (I &#769;m volunteer to check it).

Until have a balanced scenario, we can play a short 41 campaign. I&#769;d prefer until April 42, to do to the soviet player the opportunity of a counterattack during winter, this way the German player must save their forces.

The problem is: in 3.101, it&#769;s too easy to conquer Moscow and Leningrad. So, how can we know the winner?
I proposed a VP system based in cities conquered.
Loses are not significative: 1) Loses are not important in 41 campaign, but the fall of some cities crunch the long term soviet hopes. 2) The soviets lose a lot of people in the firsts weeks of war, and it&#769;s not easy to compare with German loses.
Could anyone to propose changes or any VP system?

[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Lorenzo from Spain ]</p>

To all

Ok, i need some input here on two subjects

First off i think that the Possum WiR version of the '41 start should be used for any games starting in '41. I'm playing two games as soviets at the moment against skilled opponents and the ballance is much better than standard V3.1. Also it has a lot of 'flavour' regarding units and air.
If you want it then send an E-mail to my home at..
nemesis@northnet.com.au
and i'll send the zip to you.

Secondly, in regards to the tourney scenerio i'm making, i need some feedback on what i'm doing.
It's set in june43 so both sides have decent tanks and aircraft. I took the standard '43 start and LOCKED THE MAP so the southern edge is the 45 hexrow and Kharkov is dead center east/west.
**The scenerio is 20 turns long**
The units used are the ones that start in the area in the '43 game but the premise is that the german '42 attack was on moscow again and it failed.
Thus the germans hold Stalino/Kharkov/Kursk/Bryansk and Smolensk with the soviet line about 2 hexes east of those cities. (good open ground with some rivers)
As this is a tourney scenerio and not historical i've decided to thin out the forces involved a fair bit(mostly involves soviets) and having the frontline on both sides held by corps/armies of 40/50 CV(about 3/4 divs). The main striking power of both sides will be positioned back from the line in 2 HQ's(per side) holding nearly all the armour and air to be deployed as each player desires.
Thus there will be a infantry only line at start that is not too strong with the forces required to break the line further back thus not jamming the front with units that could result in a deadlock.
Players will need to use deception and logistic skills(moving stuff into position) as well as concentration and envelopement.
Also ALL the soviet tank armies will be employed to be matched by an equal # of PZ Kps (and maybe a restriction on the axis to stop any more being deployed)
As i said, the number of units involved will be lower than the historical time frame so players will need to use what they have more efficiently.
Ballance will be attempted by giving both sides equal numbers of everything then this will be adjusted to take into account vehicle/plane quality and training.
Most units are being modified, there will be less of everything but armour and air(deadlock breakers) will be boosted in individual unit strength.
It's more work than i thought so it'll be a few days yet before it can be posted out to anyone who wants to test it to destruction and make suggestion on mistakes that WILL show up.

Does the general concept sound solid?
Also.
*A small problem is that the axis hold more cities near the front so i may have to give stalino to he soviets and have several german held cities not count for victory.
*I think a good idea would be to have all frontline start units at entrench 2 only to facillitate mobillity from the start.


Nick

PS. Locking the map means the strategic view is the whole map, if you zoom in you can still move about in the locked area but cannot move the strategic view. Look at Typhoon scenerio to see what i mean.

[ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: Lokioftheaesir ]</p>

A problem: in 43, Germans can´t win. The production, the fall of Italy, the allied bombers... How to solve this?

Originally posted by Lorenzo from Spain:
A problem: in 43, Germans can´t win. The production, the fall of Italy, the allied bombers... How to solve this?

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Lorenzo

It's a locked map scenerio of ONLY 20 TURNS.
(early june to end of october at the latest)
Production and vehicle/plane pools come into play and they will be seen to. Nothing else you mentioned happens in a locked scenerio.

(Ricky,Ed,Svar.. if you are reading this is that right?.
I've played some of it as human v human and there is no bombing, is that all or is there something i'm missing?

Nick

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:
Lorenzo

It's a locked map scenerio of ONLY 20 TURNS.
(early june to end of october at the latest)
Production and vehicle/plane pools come into play and they will be seen to. Nothing else you mentioned happens in a locked scenerio.

(Ricky,Ed,Svar.. if you are reading this is that right?.
I've played some of it as human v human and there is no bombing, is that all or is there something i'm missing?

Nick

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It sounds to me like you have it covered, with a very balanced scenario. It makes sense that eliminating the west will eliminate the affects of strategic bombing. One thing to consider to balance things a little bit, the Soviets probably should get slightly more planes ready at the start and more production, over and above what you think is needed to balance things. The reason for this is that damaged German planes repair 50% faster than Soviet, I believe. In some testing I did, 50% of the damaged German planes repaired each turn, but only 33% of Soviet, if I remember correctly. This can turn into a huge advantage in a scenario that is air intensive and balanced otherwise.

Originally posted by RickyB:

It sounds to me like you have it covered, with a very balanced scenario. It makes sense that eliminating the west will eliminate the affects of strategic bombing. One thing to consider to balance things a little bit, the Soviets probably should get slightly more planes ready at the start and more production, over and above what you think is needed to balance things. The reason for this is that damaged German planes repair 50% faster than Soviet, I believe. In some testing I did, 50% of the damaged German planes repaired each turn, but only 33% of Soviet, if I remember correctly. This can turn into a huge advantage in a scenario that is air intensive and balanced otherwise.

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Ricky

Thanks for the info on repair rates. Had not considered this. The whole thing is getting like...Yeeeccchh...Work.
(but it's a labour of love)

Nick

Hello Loki!

Like what i am reading how fare have you got so far???? Do you need any help playtesting it?

Any news about scenario for WiR tournament?

Thanxs.

To All

Here is first draught of WiR Tourney Scenerio.

It's at a Yahoo briefcase i set up, click on link below and right click and save on WirTrnScn.Zip

http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/lokiwir/lst?.dir=/My+Documents

Make sure you read the Readme File.

Loki

PS. Can someone tell me the URL to get to WiRHack?
The editing resources that come with WiR are not enough.

[ December 06, 2001: Message edited by: Lokioftheaesir ]</p>

To All

The modified 44 Campaign by MIST has been added to the Yahoo briefcase listed above.

WirTrnScn.zip = Wir tounament scenerio by me.
Camp44.zip = Mod '44 campaign by Mist

Loki

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:
To All

The modified 44 Campaign by MIST has been added to the Yahoo briefcase listed above.

WirTrnScn.zip = Wir tounament scenerio by me.
Camp44.zip = Mod '44 campaign by Mist

Loki

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Thanx for promotion Loki <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
I just want to note that Camp44.zip is pre-release version. It is open for discussing and corrections. There will be upgrade a little bit later.