Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: wesy


Sure there were bad guys on all sides - here's another link to our own less than wonderful people. Trust me i'm not discounting the Japanese attrocities, but humans from all sides were guilty.

here are some less than swell allied folk

No doubt you are right, there are bad guys on every side. However, when the administration, generals, or ruling party ORDERS the massacure of others it goes beyound a few bad guys on all sides.

However there is a big difference between bad guys doing wrong and an entire nation under orders to commit genocide.

K. We forget our own history.

Here's a link to our less than "nice" occupation of the phillipines. I think the standing orders was from the american general was shoo anyone over 10 years old. Let alone our treatment of African-Americans in this country over the years. Sure you can say well we didn't put them in concentration camps - no we just used them as slaves, then we used Jim Crow laws to keep them down, and uh we have less than desirable folks lynch them as well, "seperate but equal" boy we're so good at criticizing others but fail to look into our own sordid history. Hmm..I don't think African Americans were able to by a home in certain cities in the supposed "liberal" SF bay area, until the 70's (due to deed restrictions etc.). I'm not saying that our axis friends we're any better, but we're getting into the areas of moral relativism. We're just less bad. Hmm what did the UK do to China? Opium Trade. Nice. Manifest Destiny. Let's just kill all the native americans and take their land...hmmm nice blankets - let's give them "those ones"...Let's get our colony addicted to Opium. that's it! .


The war is over, let's get over it, but don't overlook or less than steller records on human right..as Shakespeare once said "...he doth protesteth too much.."

oops here the link:

Spanish American War

ORIGINAL: wesy

K. We forget our own history.

Here's a link to our less than "nice" occupation of the phillipines. I think the standing orders was from the american general was shoo anyone over 10 years old. Let alone our treatment of African-Americans in this country over the years. Sure you can say well we didn't put them in concentration camps - no we just used them as slaves, then we used Jim Crow laws to keep them down, and uh we have less than desirable folks lynch them as well, "seperate but equal" boy we're so good at criticizing others but fail to look into our own sordid history. Hmm..I don't think African Americans were able to by a home in certain cities in the supposed "liberal" SF bay area, until the 70's (due to deed restrictions etc.). I'm not saying that our axis friends we're any better, but we're getting into the areas of moral relativism. We're just less bad. Hmm what did the UK do to China? Opium Trade. Nice. Manifest Destiny. Let's just kill all the native americans and take their land...hmmm nice blankets - let's give them "those ones"...Let's get our colony addicted to Opium. that's it! .


The war is over, let's get over it, but don't overlook or less than steller records on human right..as Shakespeare once said "...he doth protesteth too much.."

wesy

To be fair, if you are going to use the America of 1859 as a moral standard of our country, then you must compare it to the standards which existed in other nations at the same time- not one hundred years later.

Excellent point, one that many people should consider before they start pointing out country A or country B's failures.

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro
To be fair, if you are going to use the America of 1859 as a moral standard of our country, then you must compare it to the standards which existed in other nations at the same time- not one hundred years later.

Sure. Compare it with Sweden 1859. No slaves, no wars of aggression, no massacres. Whats your point?

ORIGINAL: Doggie

I guess it takes generations to get over your grand mama having her head shaved back in the winter of '44, huh?

Dear Doggie,

Please know what you're talking about. My grand mama's head was shaved in the spring of '45. As I allready noticed you're knowledge of historical facts is rather meagre.
Oh oh, you're really a sad person, aren't you?

ORIGINAL: wesy

I'm not saying that our axis friends we're any better, but we're getting into the areas of moral relativism. We're just less bad.

Actually our behavior was significantly better during the period in time. And the Axis are not our friends. What you're doing is deflecting the guilt that the Axis deserves and directing it at the US.

As someone said: "1 atrocity or 10 million, what's the difference?"

The difference is the scale. WW2 saw humanity reach new depths of depravity and I think it's important that we never forget that. Nor should we forget that it was Japan & Germany plumbing those depths. That's not to say that it should be held against modern Japan or Germany. But it should always be held against them historically.

IMO, although I understand the reasons why, it's our alliance with the Soviets that is the most shameful chapter of the last 100 years of US history. Yet, I rarely if ever see anti-US talking points on that subject. Wonder why that is?

ORIGINAL: freder


Dear Doggie,

Please know what you're talking about. My grand mama's head was shaved in the spring of '45. As I allready noticed you're knowledge of historical facts is rather meagre.
Oh oh, you're really a sad person, aren't you?

I gotta ask.

Who shaved her head and why in Spring '45?

I understand what Doggie was referencing. It was depicted in Band of Brothers, if that helps you out any. The difference of a few months is quite beside the point.

Anyway I'm sorry for your grandma but she would have likely fared far worse in Japanese hands*.


edit-

Assuming she wasn't Jewish or from any other group the Nazis systematically slaughtered.

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Sure. Compare it with Sweden 1859. No slaves, no wars of aggression, no massacres. Whats your point?

What's yours?

The US (and many others) fought the Nazis. Sweden aided them. Sweden's only claim to fame (infamy) in the last few hundred years.

Although lots of Swedes did come to the US and help make it what it is today. Hats off to them - even if some may have participated in a massacre of two.

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund


Sure. Compare it with Sweden 1859. No slaves, no wars of aggression, no massacres. Whats your point?

Okay, let's compare:

In the middle of the nineteenth century, Sweden was a land of poverty, want and social frustration.

Are you sure you're from Sweden? Most American high school kids seem to know more about Sweden than you do.[8|]

ORIGINAL: freder

Please know what you're talking about. My grand mama's head was shaved in the spring of '45. As I allready noticed you're knowledge of historical facts is rather meagre.
Oh oh, you're really a sad person, aren't you?

My knowledge of historical facts is pretty spot on. It's yours that seems to be lacking. The first Americans soldiers to die liberating Holland did so in 1944. After 1945, the evil American capitalists all but rebuilt Holland from the ground up, then helped do it again following the North Sea floods of 1953.

If it weren't for racist American soldiers, there wouldn't even be a Holland today. It is kind of sad to think all that effort was wasted on ingrates like you, but there were plenty of decent people in Holland that made it worth while.

ORIGINAL: wesy




The war is over, let's get over it, but don't overlook or less than steller records on human rights

Less than steller, perhaps, but still light years beyond just about everyone else. Especially the Japanese.

ORIGINAL: Doggie
Okay, let's compare:

In the middle of the nineteenth century, Sweden was a land of poverty, want and social frustration.

Ok, so we were poor.
The US had slaves, massacred the native americans, and lets not even begin to talk about the Phillipines.

Do you remember what we were comparing? Yeah, thats right, we win.

Are you sure you're from Sweden? Most American high school kids seem to know more about Sweden than you do.[8|]

LOL, yeah right. What is it...58% of American high school kids cant point out their own nation on a world map? Id be surprised if there are more than 5% who understands the difference between Sweden and Switzerland.

ORIGINAL: mjk428

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Sure. Compare it with Sweden 1859. No slaves, no wars of aggression, no massacres. Whats your point?

What's yours?

That even if we compare the US 1859 with another nation 1859, you lose.

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund


LOL, yeah right. What is it...58% of American high school kids cant point out their own nation on a world map? Id be surprised if there are more than 5% who understands the difference between Sweden and Switzerland.

I really get a kick out of watching you go on about “Individual blah-blah BS , but once America enters into your
delusional debate you immediately take up the position of a “Collective un-educated racist Americans .

I really get a kick out of watching you go on about “Individual blah-blah BS , but once America enters into your
delusional debate you immediately take up the position of a “Collective un-educated racist Americans .

Well, that is what it's all about, isn't it? The whole thing is about "proving" the racial and genetic superiority of pure bred Europeans. They're more "highly evolved" than us mongrels. It's elitist snobs on parade. Harummph. I went to law school. I'm so much more educated than you ruffians." Then he steals that map from the MCS archives.[8|]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund




Ok, so we were poor.
The US had slaves, massacred the native americans, and lets not even begin to talk about the Phillipines.

Sweden didn't need slaves; it had Swedes. That's why everyone in Sweden was trying to hop on a boat to the United States. They were slaves in their own country. Americans ended slavery in 1865 at the cost of a half a million American lives. It took a half a million more American lives to end slavery in Europe and the Pacific in 1945. So what has Sweden ever done for anyone?

The native Americans were massacred in European controlled Central and South America. The native South Americans don't exist anymore. The North American Indians weren't rounded up out of their beds and shipped off to gas chambers. They were warriors who fought each other and American settlers for centuries and lost. The Phillipinos weren't exactly holding candle light vigils either.

Do you remember what we were comparing? Yeah, thats right, we win.

We were comparing the conduct of the Japanese armed forces with that of the Americans. You can't justify your delusion about how Americans were worse than them so you keep trying to change the subject. You didn't "win" anything, because you've never done anything. Your whole argument about Swedes being racially superior to Americans rests on the premise that you've never accomplished anything.

LOL, yeah right. What is it...58% of American high school kids cant point out their own nation on a world map? Id be surprised if there are more than 5% who understands the difference between Sweden and Switzerland.

Who says? Some Swedish college kid? One that doesn't even know the history of his own country? Every American here seems to know a lot more about your history than you do. And we know we get porn and self rightous snobs from Sweden and corrupt UN officials from Switzerland. You get people who make a difference in the world from the United States.

That even if we compare the US 1859 with another nation 1859, you lose.

What other nation would that be? Anybody risking their lives on a sailboat in the 19th century trying to make it to Sweden? Or the twentieth for that matter. So why was everyone trying to get the hell out of Europe if it was such a Eutopia?

ORIGINAL: Sarge

I really get a kick out of watching you go on about “Individual blah-blah BS , but once America enters into your
delusional debate you immediately take up the position of a “Collective un-educated racist Americans .

Excellent observation, Sarge, but I'm afraid it calls for common sense to understand. It has become obvious the PZJ Hortlund is either lacking in common sense, or is just a hypocrite.

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro
To be fair, if you are going to use the America of 1859 as a moral standard of our country, then you must compare it to the standards which existed in other nations at the same time- not one hundred years later.

Sure. Compare it with Sweden 1859. No slaves, no wars of aggression, no massacres. Whats your point?

Sweden certainly had no problem in contributing to the slavery problem the United States inherited from the Europeans. Slavery was not abolished in Sweden until 1847.

The fact that Sweden was not involved in wars of aggression or massacres does not mean that Swedes were or are morally superior. Sweden was not capable of either at the time and with declining colonies had little use for slaves. A quick look at Swedish history shows that Swedes certainly had no problem with either when they had the ability and the slightest need.