Matrix Games Forums

Soerabaja (march 4th and 5th 1942)

We discussed those ABDA P40E's and these guys were in action.

Unfortunately they were up againts well trained zero fighters and really could not do the damage I had hoped for.

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Morning Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 34 NM, estimated altitude 25,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 27



Allied aircraft
B-339D x 10
CW-21B Demon x 10
75A-7 Hawk x 7
Hurricane IIb Trop x 2
P-40E Warhawk x 49


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-339D: 1 destroyed
CW-21B Demon: 3 destroyed
75A-7 Hawk: 2 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 10 destroyed



Aircraft Attacking:
4 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 24000 feet

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Morning Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 49 NM, estimated altitude 25,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 16 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 16



Allied aircraft
B-339D x 5
CW-21B Demon x 7
75A-7 Hawk x 2
Hurricane IIb Trop x 2
P-40E Warhawk x 20


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-339D: 1 destroyed
CW-21B Demon: 1 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 5 destroyed



Aircraft Attacking:
4 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 24000 feet


There were couple more raids such as the above ones,. We shot down +10 zero's while our losses were +30 aircraft. The odds were 1:3 in this encounter.

I have been unable to found any good recipe againts those high alltitude zero sweeps. He has done this againts AVG too.

The allied CAP was set between 18 000 - 20 000 feet in that battle.

China (march 4th and 5th 1942)

The ground battles continue in nothern china.

Orange arrows = chinese movement
Red arrows = japanese movement

Last turn enemy launched an assault at 85,43. This time around the chinese forces repulsed the enemy.

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Ground combat at 85,43

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 18341 troops, 104 guns, 223 vehicles, Assault Value = 616

Defending force 73284 troops, 328 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1880

Japanese adjusted assault: 138

Allied adjusted defense: 1189

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 8

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1692 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 136 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 130 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled
Vehicles lost 47 (2 destroyed, 45 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
1126 casualties reported
Squads: 11 destroyed, 90 disabled
Non Combat: 13 destroyed, 87 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Guns lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)


Assaulting units:
12th Tank Regiment
3rd Ind.Mixed Brigade
5th Armored Car Co
16th RGC Temp. Division
15th Ind.Mixed Brigade
1st NCPC Infantry Brigade
8th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
5th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion

Defending units:
61st Chinese Corps
27th Chinese Corps
9th Chinese Corps
80th Chinese Corps
38th Chinese Corps
47th Chinese Corps
96th Chinese Corps
93rd Chinese Corps
36th Chinese Corps
90th Chinese/C Corps
14th Group Army
4th Chinese Base Force
Jingcha War Area
1st War Area
8th Group Army
36th Group Army
10th Chinese Base Force

This is not bad news at all. By looking at the adjusted av values and order has been given to counterstrike. I think we will be able to route these enemy forces and knock them out at least for a while.

Dave has just left 3 units around Loyang so basically could advance but I doubt that offensive would do any good.

I think the next few rounds will be quite intresting affairs.

I thought i would post this for you to hopefully help you with your p-40 combat.. he definitely will have advantage over you at altitude hope this proves useful

i would recommend 100% dont put your cap over 7-10000 feet.. if he flies high enough you cant see him at least hes not getting accurate bombing.. if he flies lower than at least the odds will be evened to your favor


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Is there any way to bring in some units on the path he using to get his tanks north in China ? If they fall without supply even your weak units up north will be able to stop them / counterattack. Added bonus is that they are so far away from reinforcements that clearing any roadblock might take forever.

Sardauker : It is possible to get supplies to Darwin overland, though getting fuel there is indeed a challenge. If the base is only used for a limited number of subs, then the required fuel is low though.

I think we might have had some success during the last turn. I had email waiting from Dave stating "Ouch! You definitely came out ahead this turn."

No details about this just yet since I don't have turn files. Allthough it is seldom when Dave states anything like this.

krupp_88mm: All the comments and ideas are greatly appreciated.

Intresting. Basically you are saying I should keep the CAP at maxium of 10 000 feet? Doesn't that trigger penalties with AE since he can "jump" on our fighters?

Another nice pic.

Smeulders: I think it can be done but it might take sometime. The movement rates are very bad due to terrain issues.

I sizeable reinforcements on their way towards northern china. If we can stop him here than we have achieved an miracle if you take all the events into consideration.

Btw, any have the figures what kind of garrison duties japanese must leave behind when capturing bases? ...or is it the same as allies? I think it should be at least double since they are seizing hostile territory.

Now I'am eagerly waiting for the turn after those comments.

China (march 5th and 6th 1942)

The turn wasn't as good as expected. Dave propably preferred to his aircraft losses that AVG managed to inflict.

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Morning Air attack on 9th Chinese Corps, at 85,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 8
Ki-30 Ann x 9
Ki-48-Ib Lily x 7



Allied aircraft
H81-A3 x 18


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-27b Nate: 2 destroyed
Ki-30 Ann: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-48-Ib Lily: 4 destroyed

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Morning Air attack on 27th Chinese Corps, at 85,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 10 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-48-Ib Lily x 17



Allied aircraft
H81-A3 x 12


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48-Ib Lily: 5 destroyed, 5 damaged



Allied ground losses:
14 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

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Morning Air attack on Jingcha War Area , at 85,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 3
Ki-27b Nate x 1
Ki-30 Ann x 11
Ki-48-Ib Lily x 13



Allied aircraft
H81-A3 x 16


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 1 destroyed
Ki-27b Nate: 1 destroyed
Ki-30 Ann: 6 destroyed
Ki-48-Ib Lily: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged


The intel screen showed some 50 enemy aircraft downed in past 2 days. However the combat replay shows only maybe 30 aircraft destroyed.

Unfortunately the chinese counterstrike did not go as planned.

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Ground combat at 85,43

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 65790 troops, 327 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1805

Defending force 16678 troops, 104 guns, 222 vehicles, Assault Value = 504

Allied adjusted assault: 134

Japanese adjusted defense: 1081

Allied assault odds: 1 to 8

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-)
Attacker: disruption(-), supply(-)

Japanese ground losses:
583 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 59 disabled
Non Combat: 24 destroyed, 87 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 87 (36 destroyed, 51 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
4589 casualties reported
Squads: 21 destroyed, 346 disabled
Non Combat: 18 destroyed, 158 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 3 disabled


Assaulting units:
9th Chinese Corps
47th Chinese Corps
38th Chinese Corps
96th Chinese Corps
27th Chinese Corps
80th Chinese Corps
61st Chinese Corps
36th Chinese Corps
93rd Chinese Corps
90th Chinese/C Corps
4th Chinese Base Force
36th Group Army
14th Group Army
8th Group Army
1st War Area
Jingcha War Area
10th Chinese Base Force

Defending units:
5th Armored Car Co
12th Tank Regiment
15th Ind.Mixed Brigade
16th RGC Temp. Division
3rd Ind.Mixed Brigade
1st NCPC Infantry Brigade
8th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
5th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion

At least we killed 1/3 of his armour in this spearhead if you want to look at the bright side.

The supply / distrubtion was not good so our av values really took an hit. I think the casualty levels might have been FOW related since he had 1000av points here.

Now time start moving with combat orders towards Sian. It will take a while though and I do expect so harashment by the enemy troops.

As you can see from the pic 17 enemy units with 3000av have now moved closer to Sian. These units are now 40 miles south of the city.

Enemy paratroopers have been active also. They have seized 3 bases in this area. I do not actually mind this since now I can destroy these annoying units completely.

Regarding the advice on your fighters:

Your regular P-40Es are inferior at all altitudes so the assessment is correct that you need to stay below 10K. That way if he is low you stand a chance of getting in at his bombers. If his fighters are too high he might miss you, and high flying bombers are no major threat.

Your AVG P-40s would stand a chance above 31K but there is little likelihood of his bombers being that high. Stay low so you can intercept his bombers.

It won't apply in China, but elsewhere at this point you will find the P-39D to be your best aircraft if used correctly. You need to stay below 10k, with good leaders and good pilots.

P39s can definitely be great bomber interceptors. I lost about 40 Betty's in one turn over Port Moresby to P39s during a GuadMod test.

seydlitz: Good to see you again. Hmmm. First I need to download the new Witp Tracker for AE. It was magnificent tool in previous version.

Just haven't had time to do it since "rl" has been very busy. I will that in the morning since it is getting late back here in scandinavia.

I was actually catching up with your AAR today (good stuff and one of the best AAR's I have seen even with the Witp) and will post few things there since your opponent might be reading this one. There is a lot of stuff to digest and I need some freetime to go through it properly.

I think those pics you posted will help even the veterans to perform better. You really can't spell any things out more clearly.

Just to clarify one question though for future use.

If you look at the pic ie. on post 408. The AVG aircraft details.

Lets assume he is doing sweep missions between 15 000 to 25 000 feet. In order to combat these most effectively P40B's should have their CAP at +30 000 feet. Corrrect? If he is escorting his bombers than the CAP should stay below 10 000 feet?

Basically two options for diffrent type of CAP missions and the same ideology would be executed with all fighter aircraft.

This just shows you are never too old to learn new stuff. [:D]

I'am thinking about firing up and Japanese AI game to learn the ropes there since once this is over and done with maybe it is time to jump into dark side. That is an diffrent story and this PBEM hasn't even entered summer of 1942. So, few more turns to do!

jwilkerson: It is an nice aircraft! I just wonder how much more damage I could have done to his carriers had I been "awake" when he raided southern pacific.

The good thing is that I bet he is coming again and I do have even more fighters deployed in key bases! [:D]

Well, that ought to have hurt. I mean that is more than full squadrons lost there!

ORIGINAL: aztez

If you look at the pic ie. on post 408. The AVG aircraft details.

Lets assume he is doing sweep missions between 15 000 to 25 000 feet. In order to combat these most effectively P40B's should have their CAP at +30 000 feet. Corrrect? If he is escorting his bombers than the CAP should stay below 10 000 feet?

Post 408....the P-39D. Stay low. Stay around 9000 feet. You are 30 mph faster than the zero at this altitude and the difference in maneuverability is lowest. You should be about even in terms of combat except that you will have armor and enough firepower to hurt him if you hit him.

I personally think that the game does not have everything right in the P-39D. This was actually the plane that the Japanese most loved to encounter in New Guinea, and the performance drop off above 14000 feet is just not drastic enough.

RE the P40B....Yes. Fight at 31-32K. You might also try doing a sweep with these sometimes. Catch him sleeping at 20-30% cap and at a lower altitude and you can get in a few kills.

ORIGINAL: seydlitz

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

In WitP my rule for selecting sub captains was like:

1. High Naval skill
2. If experienced boat crew, high aggressiveness
3. If unexperienced crew, lower aggressiveness

High aggressiveness and low crew experience, big chance for sub getting damaged or sunk (hig aggressiveness commanders love to attack on surface etc.). Low naval skill, high aggressiveness and low crew exp...almost doomed sub.

Seems to work in AE too.

Very good rules to live by.

Great advice. I usually give the less aggressive commanders two wartime patrols before changing them. This is generally consistent with actual USN policy at the time. It is practical also, allowing the fleet boats to build experience before handing them over to the likes of Mush Morton!

ORIGINAL: aztez

Submarine warfare plans/options (early 1942)

As promised I did lay out the plans for this army sector.

Instead of using a lot of words the overview map kind of speaks volumes.

Pointer dots = Possible submarine bases.
Green arrows = Possible directions for the submarines.

The bases are the following: Colombo, Perth, Darwin, Brisbane, Auckland, Tahiti, Christmas Island, Pearl Harbour, Midway and Anchorage.

aztez, your forum generated the best discussions of the sub war I have yet seen.

Here are my thoughts...

According to Blair, USN after-action-reviews suggested that it was a mistake to split the submarine force between Freemantle (Perth), Brisbane and Pearl. They were focusing on the fleetboats primarily, but determined it was too difficult to penetrate the "Malay Barrier" (too many choke points and nearby air bases). The "Empire" patrols out of Pearl were consistently the most effective. Midway was used as a refueling stop on the way out and upon return to extend patrol times. The recommendation was the fleet submarines should have been focused on offensive (or strategic) sub warfare from the beginning as opposed to defensive patrols to defend against invasions, etc.

Your map helps paint the picture. Patrols from Pearl heve direct access to the Phillipine and South China Seas where all major convoys must pass moving resources, oil, fuel, men and material to and from the perimeter.

The pig boats (old S-boats) and short range Dutch and Brit boats will not have the ability to conduct strategic sub warfare in the Empire waters. Pick a port outside of enemy bomber range and put an AS there. Brisbane allows for tactical sub warfare in the Solomons which often figure prominantly in IJN drives into the South Pacific.

Subs from Ceylon and Perth are going to struggle penetrating the Malay Barrier choke points, but there are no really good options. These are reasonable bases for short range boats.

Darwin is very hard to keep safe in the early years of the war. Alaska is too far for the pig boats to get to any dense shipping lanes and is usually not the site of sustained combat operations. Also, IRL, the choice of sub bases in the USN was also driven by the need for recreation when the crews returned from patrol. Any commander planning on stationing USN subs at Darwin or Alaska might find his captains and crews a little unhappy at the choice...

Again, thanks. A great discussion of a part of the game I have come to love.

seydlitz: Thanks a lot. I got the idea crystal clear. To clarify I set one squadron of AVG on 32 000 feet defending againts sweeps and other 2 AVG's on 9000 feet to intercept bombers.

Those P40E's at Java are now set on 9000 feet CAP since that is the optium alltitude for that aircraft.

Wirraway_Ace: Thank you! Definately golden thoughts there. I'am changing my sub commanders once they arrive port for refuel.

I'am seeing more interceptions now that some commanders are changed. The linger on hex is now set on between 1-2 days. Much more effective now and the fuel consumption might be a bit slower since they are not in constant move.

I do like the new submarine system quite a lot. It is an vast improvement on the old witp.

Intresting. I kind of have divided the submarine warfare for two types. A) convoy raiding and B) defensive/offensive missions which gives me better intel.

Those thoughts are sound. I haven't had the chance to place the subs where I want at the moment since they are everywhere and its needs time to organize/setup.

I'am kind of thinking through the following guidelines.

Pearl Harbour/Midway = All the long legged US submarines based here. I mean those above 10 000 endurance.

Brisbane/Perth/Darwin = Dutch submarines and some S-boats I think the Darwin would the most optium base for subs but it is too hazardous due to the lba threat. Also think it is going to be invaded.

Ceylon = There are no better bases for RN submarines. There are few at the start but they do build up within time. Allies have level 9 port at Colombo.

Alaska = Some recon/offensive submarines when I can spare them. The weather is also bad most of year so system damage will build up.

No problems but thanks will need to be spread around to all the people participating here with all the discussions/views and ideas.

China (march 7th and 8th 1942)

As expected there was large scale ground offensives around Sian.

The first one took place north of Loyang.

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Ground combat at 85,43

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 22437 troops, 142 guns, 206 vehicles, Assault Value = 646

Defending force 67836 troops, 326 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1493

Japanese adjusted assault: 230

Allied adjusted defense: 1111

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 4

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
2015 casualties reported
Squads: 18 destroyed, 85 disabled
Non Combat: 7 destroyed, 111 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Vehicles lost 28 (9 destroyed, 19 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
1965 casualties reported
Squads: 12 destroyed, 91 disabled
Non Combat: 11 destroyed, 119 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled


Assaulting units:
15th Ind.Mixed Brigade
3rd Ind.Mixed Brigade
12th Tank Regiment
16th RGC Temp. Division
59th Infantry Brigade
5th Armored Car Co
1st NCPC Infantry Brigade
8th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
5th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion

Defending units:
61st Chinese Corps
80th Chinese Corps
47th Chinese Corps
9th Chinese Corps
96th Chinese Corps
38th Chinese Corps
93rd Chinese Corps
36th Chinese Corps
27th Chinese Corps
90th Chinese/C Corps
1st War Area
4th Chinese Base Force
Jingcha War Area
8th Group Army
14th Group Army
36th Group Army
10th Chinese Base Force

This was repulsed but it seems he got decent supply levels by looking at the adjusted av values and overall strenght. Remember this was the 3rd offensive here and by comparing this to the "original" one he has replaced quite a few losses here.

Another big ground battle took place just south of Sian.

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Ground combat at 84,42

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 102927 troops, 772 guns, 301 vehicles, Assault Value = 3140

Defending force 66042 troops, 362 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1689

Japanese adjusted assault: 1540

Allied adjusted defense: 1981

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
4932 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 218 disabled
Non Combat: 5 destroyed, 260 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 33 disabled
Vehicles lost 28 (1 destroyed, 27 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
6480 casualties reported
Squads: 16 destroyed, 351 disabled
Non Combat: 20 destroyed, 430 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 23 disabled
Guns lost 11 (0 destroyed, 11 disabled)


Assaulting units:
35th/B Division
6th Division
26th Engineer Regiment
37th Division
110th Division
35th/A Division
9th Armored Car Co
8th Ind.Mixed Brigade
13th Tank Regiment
41st Division
51st Recon Regiment
12th Indpt Infantry Regiment
3rd Division
35th/C Division
2nd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
North China Area Army
1st Mortar Battalion

Defending units:
8th Route Army
41st Chinese Corps
90th Chinese/B Corps
77th Chinese/C Corps
16th Chinese Corps
90th Chinese/A Corps
57th Chinese Corps
1st Chinese Corps
33rd Chinese Corps
95th Chinese/B Corps
5th War Area
1st Artillery Regiment
21st Group Army
20th Artillery Regiment
22nd Group Army
7th Group Army
Red Chinese Army
34th Group Army
56th AT Gun Regiment

The assaults was repulsed but the enemy losses were not high enough. There are still +3000av values here so definately his replacement system is working like a charm.

AVG was not in action this turn since he opted to rest his bombers in this region.

Pacific (march 7th and 8th 1942)

Nothing significant took place elsewhere.

Dave has continued cleaning up small bases in southern pacific and in philippines.

There are a lot of activity reported in celebes, malaya and singapore. Basically meaning the operations againts Java are about to begin very soon.

There is no sign of KB after the last assault againts Pago Pago. The carriers are either refitting at Kwaleijin/Truk or have head out towards Java. I think the first option is most likely.

Regarding sub bases, I think you should use S-boats from Darwin and Brisbane against DEI & New Guinea. If he observes that you have major sub forces in Darwin, he will shut down the Darwin with Port Attacks by LBA bombers and maybe bring even carrier air to play. So you'll need good amount of CAP there...and supplying Darwin is problematic. Even when using supply-adjustment arrows, it is not good enough solution unless you have massive oversupply in Oz.

If he starts to attack Darwin, being the subs back to Perth and Brisbane, use the S-boats from Brisbane.

Hi, just wanted to show that I still read your AAR. Thanks for well written AAR.

Just curious. How do you use your navy? How many ships you keep in Indian Ocean - have you transferred some ships from there? Where are your CVs, BBs, CAs and CLs? Basically Iwould like totals for theater: Indian Ocean, DEI, Solomons, Hawaii, in refit or in the rears.

Honestly I start to think that Allied side can loose the war. The lost of two carriers such early in the game was major plus to IJN. If japan player will build it up strong submarine and airfield bases at Noumea and Fiiji then Australia is out of war. After he will occupy Sian, Lanchow and Urumchi, in 1-2 month until China twill be out of war, he even dont need to capture Chungking and other inner cities.