Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Just for comparison, here's the set up for France 1940.

German forces are 10 Panzer Divisions (strength 10 each), 6 Mech Divisions (strength 8 each), 96 Infantry Divisions (strength 6 each), 2 Panzer Brigades (strength 3 each), and 3 Para Regiments (strength 2 each). (Total strength 736).

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Again Bob is selling the game too short and he is not understanding how WIE actually works (btw my numbers are correct for the 1940 Campaign game, his numbers is only for the 1940 Scenario which is only against France).

If I had the time I'd let Bob take the Germans and let him see how hard it is to go for Spain (not to mention how unwise it is). It's much better to drive deep into Russia and NA in the hopes of getting Spain to join your side and then let Spain garrison Spain when the Brits and US forces start to get ready to hit the beach. Seriously, if any Axis player went into to Spain I'd be jumping for joy as the W.Allies and or Soviet player, devising my '42 attack into Poland and going for Berlin by '43.

The only player that I think that may be able to pull that off was Steve whom I shared many many games with and he was a wily Englishman who always gave me grief as the W.Allies. Sadly my good friend passed away in '17.

I know of 4 top notch Axis players and only Steve would have been bold enough to take out Spain, but I bet you this, if Spain was in his plan, he would have taken Norway, Low countries, France and England. If that happened, the Soviets would be in doo doo in that game.

Three squadrons of Stuka dive bombers ravaged Stonne, as well as both French and German artillery. That morning, the Panzer IIIEs and IVDs—then the best tanks in German service—deployed to stave off a French counterattack.

Suddenly, a squat green tank lumbered around a street block directly before of the German unit. This was Eure, a 31.5-ton Char B1 bis tank commanded by Capt. Pierre Billotte. His driver, Sergeant Durupt, triggered the 75-millimeter howitzer fixed in the front hull roared, smashing the Panzer III to the rear of the column. At the same time, Billotte swiveled the smaller 47-millimeter high velocity cannon in the turret and picked off the lead tank—a mere 30 meters away.

The wrecks trapped the Panzer company in a head-to-head confrontation with the Gaelic behemoth. 37-millimeter rounds cracked from the long barrels of Panzer III tanks and ricocheted off Eure’s turret. Low-velocity 75-millimeter shells made basso thuds as they spat out the stubby guns of Panzer IV tanks, only to shatter in clouds of shrapnel against the French tank’s glacis.

More than 140 shells cratered Eure’s armor—but none penetrated. Billotte coolly blasted one Panzer after another.

Once he had destroyed the entire company—11 Panzer IIIs and two Panzer IVs in all—Billotte continued his advance and added two 37-millimeter anti-tank guns to the tally. By 7:00 A.M., Stonne was back under French control and would remain so for the rest of the day. The same day, the tank Riquewhir would charge into a column of enemy infantry, its blood-stained tracks causing the German 64th Schutzen Regiment to panic and flee an entire sector of Stonne.

For the first time, the Wehrmacht had encountered a tank that completely that outmatched its own.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Again Bob is selling the game too short and he is not understanding how WIE actually works (btw my numbers are correct for the 1940 Campaign game, his numbers is only for the 1940 Scenario which is only against France).

If I had the time I'd let Bob take the Germans and let him see how hard it is to go for Spain (not to mention how unwise it is). It's much better to drive deep into Russia and NA in the hopes of getting Spain to join your side and then let Spain garrison Spain when the Brits and US forces start to get ready to hit the beach. Seriously, if any Axis player went into to Spain I'd be jumping for joy as the W.Allies and or Soviet player, devising my '42 attack into Poland and going for Berlin by '43.

The only player that I think that may be able to pull that off was Steve whom I shared many many games with and he was a wily Englishman who always gave me grief as the W.Allies. Sadly my good friend passed away in '17.

I know of 4 top notch Axis players and only Steve would have been bold enough to take out Spain, but I bet you this, if Spain was in his plan, he would have taken Norway, Low countries, France and England. If that happened, the Soviets would be in doo doo in that game.

warspite1

Is this game still available to purchase. It looks fun!!

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Again Bob is selling the game too short and he is not understanding how WIE actually works (btw my numbers are correct for the 1940 Campaign game, his numbers is only for the 1940 Scenario which is only against France).

If I had the time I'd let Bob take the Germans and let him see how hard it is to go for Spain (not to mention how unwise it is). It's much better to drive deep into Russia and NA in the hopes of getting Spain to join your side and then let Spain garrison Spain when the Brits and US forces start to get ready to hit the beach. Seriously, if any Axis player went into to Spain I'd be jumping for joy as the W.Allies and or Soviet player, devising my '42 attack into Poland and going for Berlin by '43.

The only player that I think that may be able to pull that off was Steve whom I shared many many games with and he was a wily Englishman who always gave me grief as the W.Allies. Sadly my good friend passed away in '17.

I know of 4 top notch Axis players and only Steve would have been bold enough to take out Spain, but I bet you this, if Spain was in his plan, he would have taken Norway, Low countries, France and England. If that happened, the Soviets would be in doo doo in that game.

warspite1

Is this game still available to purchase. It looks fun!!

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

What those counters don't show is how a much better the French tanks were:


France’s Monstrous Char B1 Tank Ate German Panzers for Breakfast
But it couldn’t win the Battle of France by itself

Three squadrons of Stuka dive bombers ravaged Stonne, as well as both French and German artillery. That morning, the Panzer IIIEs and IVDs—then the best tanks in German service—deployed to stave off a French counterattack.

Suddenly, a squat green tank lumbered around a street block directly before of the German unit. This was Eure, a 31.5-ton Char B1 bis tank commanded by Capt. Pierre Billotte. His driver, Sergeant Durupt, triggered the 75-millimeter howitzer fixed in the front hull roared, smashing the Panzer III to the rear of the column. At the same time, Billotte swiveled the smaller 47-millimeter high velocity cannon in the turret and picked off the lead tank—a mere 30 meters away.

The wrecks trapped the Panzer company in a head-to-head confrontation with the Gaelic behemoth. 37-millimeter rounds cracked from the long barrels of Panzer III tanks and ricocheted off Eure’s turret. Low-velocity 75-millimeter shells made basso thuds as they spat out the stubby guns of Panzer IV tanks, only to shatter in clouds of shrapnel against the French tank’s glacis.

More than 140 shells cratered Eure’s armor—but none penetrated. Billotte coolly blasted one Panzer after another.

Once he had destroyed the entire company—11 Panzer IIIs and two Panzer IVs in all—Billotte continued his advance and added two 37-millimeter anti-tank guns to the tally. By 7:00 A.M., Stonne was back under French control and would remain so for the rest of the day. The same day, the tank Riquewhir would charge into a column of enemy infantry, its blood-stained tracks causing the German 64th Schutzen Regiment to panic and flee an entire sector of Stonne.

For the first time, the Wehrmacht had encountered a tank that completely that outmatched its own.

https://warisboring.com/47857-2/

It was the French logistics that defeated France.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

No, I would have been warspite1 - the name is gender neutral - and remember the actual ship was female (as all ships are).

HMS Warspite was a woman of a certain age that, by 1939, had been around the block a few times. She was a lady (when she needed to be) and 100% woman. She knew where it was at.

Well, the Bismark's only captain preferred to call his ship a he. Because he was of the opinion that such a powerful ship could only be a he.

warspite1

Well maybe Lutjens was a misogynist, maybe he just believed that men were stronger. But at end of the day, I would have preferred to be fighting Bismarck than the Grand Old Lady. There would only be one winner if those two faced off - and it wasn't Bismarck [:)].

... and I'm not even biased [;)]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Aurelian




Well, the Bismark's only captain preferred to call his ship a he. Because he was of the opinion that such a powerful ship could only be a he.

warspite1

Well maybe Lutjens was a misogynist, maybe he just believed that men were stronger. But at end of the day, I would have preferred to be fighting Bismarck than the Grand Old Lady. There would only be one winner if those two faced off - and it wasn't Bismarck [:)].

... and I'm not even biased [;)]

Well we all know that Warspite won the war. Such was her reputation that she won battles she was nowhere near. BTW, Lindemann was the captain

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

What those counters don't show is how a much better the French tanks were:


France’s Monstrous Char B1 Tank Ate German Panzers for Breakfast
But it couldn’t win the Battle of France by itself

Three squadrons of Stuka dive bombers ravaged Stonne, as well as both French and German artillery. That morning, the Panzer IIIEs and IVDs—then the best tanks in German service—deployed to stave off a French counterattack.

Suddenly, a squat green tank lumbered around a street block directly before of the German unit. This was Eure, a 31.5-ton Char B1 bis tank commanded by Capt. Pierre Billotte. His driver, Sergeant Durupt, triggered the 75-millimeter howitzer fixed in the front hull roared, smashing the Panzer III to the rear of the column. At the same time, Billotte swiveled the smaller 47-millimeter high velocity cannon in the turret and picked off the lead tank—a mere 30 meters away.

The wrecks trapped the Panzer company in a head-to-head confrontation with the Gaelic behemoth. 37-millimeter rounds cracked from the long barrels of Panzer III tanks and ricocheted off Eure’s turret. Low-velocity 75-millimeter shells made basso thuds as they spat out the stubby guns of Panzer IV tanks, only to shatter in clouds of shrapnel against the French tank’s glacis.

More than 140 shells cratered Eure’s armor—but none penetrated. Billotte coolly blasted one Panzer after another.

Once he had destroyed the entire company—11 Panzer IIIs and two Panzer IVs in all—Billotte continued his advance and added two 37-millimeter anti-tank guns to the tally. By 7:00 A.M., Stonne was back under French control and would remain so for the rest of the day. The same day, the tank Riquewhir would charge into a column of enemy infantry, its blood-stained tracks causing the German 64th Schutzen Regiment to panic and flee an entire sector of Stonne.

For the first time, the Wehrmacht had encountered a tank that completely that outmatched its own.

https://warisboring.com/47857-2/

It was the French logistics that defeated France.

warspite1

France was defeated by so many things. You couldn't get that result otherwise:

- Fortune favoured the brave and the German plan was bold and audacious

But

- The French generals were past it
- They were fighting the war at WWI pace, they had no idea how quickly the Germans could move, let alone would move
- The Breda Variant meant that the reserve (some of the best French troops available) that should have been around to plug the gap at Sedan, were on their way to Holland
- The French air force were happy to blame the British but there were more French aircraft at the end of the battle than there was at the start
- The British Army was simply too small to be of sufficient help when things went pear shaped
- Every bit of luck going went the Germans way.
- In case anyone forgets, the German General Staff were almost at war over the best way to proceed on many occasions.

And there are plenty more points that could be added.

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

What those counters don't show is how a much better the French tanks were:


France’s Monstrous Char B1 Tank Ate German Panzers for Breakfast
But it couldn’t win the Battle of France by itself



https://warisboring.com/47857-2/

It was the French logistics that defeated France.

warspite1

France was defeated by so many things. You couldn't get that result otherwise:

- Fortune favoured the brave and the German plan was bold and audacious

But

- The French generals were past it
- They were fighting the war at WWI pace, they had no idea how quickly the Germans could move, let alone would move
- The Breda Variant meant that the reserve (some of the best French troops available) that should have been around to plug the gap at Sedan, were on their way to Holland
- The French air force were happy to blame the British but there were more French aircraft at the end of the battle than there was at the start
- The British Army was simply too small to be of sufficient help when things went pear shaped
- Every bit of luck going went the Germans way.
- In case anyone forgets, the German General Staff were almost at war over the best way to proceed on many occasions.

And there are plenty more points that could be added.

If you read the rest of the story in that link, the Char Bis stopped the German Panzers cold on more than one occasion but did not have the maintenance nor fuel that they needed. They also frequently had no infantry nor artillery support partly because of the lack of transport assets.

ORIGINAL: warspite1


What I find so strange is that he is prepared to accept the rules of a game as being some sort of fact, and what would definitely happen. The obvious example is Rule 13b (okay it may not be 13b [:D]). The fact that the game states Spain surrender on taking the capital means it must happen that way in any counter-factual.

He seems to fail to understand that the rule could have been written that way for a number of reasons: e.g. counter limitations as some Spaniards fought on while others surrendered, or it was just too complicated to incorporate into the game mechanics etc etc.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: warspite1

warspite1

France was defeated by so many things. You couldn't get that result otherwise:

- Fortune favoured the brave and the German plan was bold and audacious

But

- The French generals were past it
- They were fighting the war at WWI pace, they had no idea how quickly the Germans could move, let alone would move
- The Breda Variant meant that the reserve (some of the best French troops available) that should have been around to plug the gap at Sedan, were on their way to Holland
- The French air force were happy to blame the British but there were more French aircraft at the end of the battle than there was at the start
- The British Army was simply too small to be of sufficient help when things went pear shaped
- Every bit of luck going went the Germans way.
- In case anyone forgets, the German General Staff were almost at war over the best way to proceed on many occasions.

And there are plenty more points that could be added.

If you read the rest of the story in that link, the Char Bis stopped the German Panzers cold on more than one occasion but did not have the maintenance nor fuel that they needed. They also frequently had no infantry nor artillery support partly because of the lack of transport assets.

warspite1

Indeed, and I mentioned that some French tanks, in many respects, were better than the German in post 2 - but that was only part of the story.....

ORIGINAL: warspite1
- Every bit of luck going went the Germans way.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

The cost of the war - materially and financially - is something the Japanese can't afford long term. There is nothing controversial about that statement, its pretty obvious to anyone.

We know what they chose and we know why they end up at war with the Commonwealth, the Dutch and the US.

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

That was obviously because of the War in the Pacific. And, it was four years later.

warspite1

Lolzer [:)] By jove I think he's got it (although he doesn't seem to understand why he's got it, or what he's actually got)!!

Allow me to explain. No. You. Don't. Now for the billionth time, you have a Wiki article that tells you that Barbarossa meant that the argument - North or South - was effectively settled. What you don't have BECAUSE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN, is a Wiki article that tells you what would happen if there was no Barbarossa. That is what we use our knowledge and our understanding of the situation Japan faced for. That is the very essence of a counter-factual. You metaphorically clinging to your Wiki article like a passenger of the Titanic who has just seen the last lifeboat depart, isn't going to help you.

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1
- Every bit of luck going went the Germans way.

I do not think this is true.

I think that the Allied forces were incapable of capitalizing on it when the luck went their way. While the German forces took their chances as they got them.

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

You keep referring to a game designed to make money as reality. So does the game of Life describe your life? Has the world developed like it has in Risk? Did you enjoy eating all of those colours and candy in Candyland?

The trucks that the Turkish people had could tow guns and haul supplies. The only things that they Germans could initially haul across the Sea of Marmora would be infantry and very light artillery. The Turks could crush that easily.

The Soviets had sold equipment to Turkey and they would not be blind to the risk of a Nazi German occupied Turkey. Although it would be very difficult for any German Armee to force its way through the mountains into the Soviet Union.

The British would not be stupid either, they would send equipment and probably military units as well. Why, even one of Kamal's daughters would probably fly to attack the Germans! Not to mention that the Turks would also help supply Greek partisans.

You have the Luftwaffe everywhere and doing everything. It could not and would not be able to do everything that you want it to do, all at the same time. Besides, they are marching while carrying signs in France to try and scare the British.

The destroyed Soviet aircraft were obsolete types like the I-15 and the I-16. Much better types were being trained on. Soviet peace time production was rather high and undisturbed by any enemy activity, it would continue to produce lots of equipment. Any equipment sent to Turkey to kill Germans would weaken the Germans and thus make the Soviet position that much better.

The Soviet T-34 and the KV-1 each had less than 200 produced in 1940. But the production rate was a lot higher the in the next two years. The T-34 had over 3,000 produced in 1941 and over 12,000 in 1942. While the KV-1 did not have that high of a production rate, still thousands were produced. Every one of those tanks could replace a lighter tank which could then have been transferred to the Turks.

The US would also have offered weapons under Lend-Lease.

ORIGINAL: Zovs

As a long time SPI and DG War In Europe (WIE) (and the CWIE2 game) player of WIE Bob (aka Curtis Lemay) is not giving WIE it's proper perspective. In that game there is a Political game as well and Bob is mis representing WIE.

Anyway, in SPI the Political game has Political Points are awarded based on Axis and Allied actions, which can be either positive or negative and then depending on where the Political level is certain (predetermined things, like Italy activating or Bulgaria joining the Axis, or the US entering early) take place.

So what Bob is not showing is in a real game of WIE its very very risky for the Germans to go after Spain (and as pointed out by warspite) and it makes not sense, since if you can do enough they will activate on the Axis side, but here is the rub that Bob has not stated (and others have) the Germans only have so much Production points to purchase new units (i.e., infantry divisions and static divisions) and you have to have the correct number of Garrisons in place or partisans (which can turn out to be quite nasty) will pop up. Poland and France have to be garrisoned. Poland requires 15 divisions (as does Turkey), and Belgium, Netherlands and Denmark each require 2 divisions each, Greece and Portugal each require 5 divisions, Norway, Sweden and Switzerland (which is impassible) each require 10 divisions and lastly, France, Spain and the UK require 30 divisions each in that game.

So just taking WIE with the proposed Med option, with the Axis accepting Vichy France, they would already have to keep 56 divisions (France, Poland, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark and Norway) in Garrison. They start the 1940 CG with 120 Infantry divisions (in Germany and 15 in Garrison in Poland), 10 Pz Divisions, 6 Mech Divisions, 1 Cav division and 1 security division.

Lastly, anyone staking any validation or historical reference in Wikipedia is a fool.

Anyone can create an account, sign into Wikipedia and edit the content to their hearts content, how valid is that data now? Worthless.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

But what are you saying? The time taken to defeat a nation is dependent upon the number of divisions? That is nonsense.

The defeat of France should never have happened (certainly not in the time it did if at all) based on the size of each force and the equipment each had. The result was caused by many things - and no matter how much one should give plaudits to the Germans - the fact was they were colossally lucky. Imagine what would have happened with no Breda Variant? Imagine if Guderian had remained sacked, imagine if Loerzer had not ignored von Kleist etc. etc.

You look at things too simplistically.

I have not said at anytime that the Spanish won't be defeated. They will. But how quickly? Well we need to understand far more than you are prepared to provide.

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Spot on, you hit the nail on the head here. I have been playing board war games since 1976 and computer war games since 1994, and here in 2020 with board games I can easily understand why James F. Dunnigan (the creator, owner of SPI and one of the best innovators (or thief, take your pick) of war game design of all time), did or wrote what he wrote 40+ years ago, you have to remember when it came time to publish war games back then in general most games came with 200 counters on one sheet, and that cost money, so if you created a game that need 310 unit counters you had to create two sheets, likewise most maps from that era (and even in today's board war gaming world) you'd have to print two maps, all that costs money. Also, if you ever read though all the various designer notes from the 70's and 80's, you get even more insight in how they designed games and you have have pointed that out (I think it was the SPI game NATO that said if you wanted thermal nuclear weapons then pour some lighter fluid on the game map and light it up with a match, game over, or some such), anyway your right, there were back then (and even today in computer war games) limitations and you just had to make a cut or a rule in order to ship it out.