Matrix Games Forums

I don't have to be acceptable as an opponent in your eyes and if you want to use every trick the game allows you to use then this is fine with me. And I don't try to find an excuse for every exploit but I do have the right to call on everyone using them. If calling doesn't help, all I can do is pay it back with the same silly thing, just to find out the enemy then complains about it, completely forgetting he came up with it.

I think you take it personally where it isn't intended.

I said nothing about you. I used "you" in the meaning of "(some)one".
I said, that if someone uses every possible trick, he has to accept that those tricks are used as well.
If we were to play, I'd either not accept the game with you regarding the HRs you propose, or I'd go with them. If you say "just common sense" and I do para-spam, I'd propably argue as above, but accept your point of view. I wouldn't risk my game because of that.

As I said: The game doesn't model any "levée en masse",

The game does not simulate/model anything .. it is a game... the problem comes I beleive when we somehow get a delusion that WitP AE somehow models anything close to reality. It is a game that the software provides a set of rules and referees FOW .. nothing more and nothing less ..

However, in the interest of a game that is decisions with consequinces and benifits, and/or play balance I think agreed home rules are great, But I think we get ourselves in trouble when we start thinking we can somehow home rule WitP AE into a simulation..

ORIGINAL: Historiker

I don't have to be acceptable as an opponent in your eyes and if you want to use every trick the game allows you to use then this is fine with me. And I don't try to find an excuse for every exploit but I do have the right to call on everyone using them. If calling doesn't help, all I can do is pay it back with the same silly thing, just to find out the enemy then complains about it, completely forgetting he came up with it.

I think you take it personally where it isn't intended.

I said nothing about you. I used "you" in the meaning of "(some)one".
I said, that if someone uses every possible trick, he has to accept that those tricks are used as well.
If we were to play, I'd either not accept the game with you regarding the HRs you propose, or I'd go with them. If you say "just common sense" and I do para-spam, I'd propably argue as above, but accept your point of view. I wouldn't risk my game because of that.

no, neither did I take it personally, nor was my reply meant as offensive even if may sound so when I reread it. There are many things in the game that have been discussed to death and all it needs is what ppl most often suggest: if you think it MIGHT be gamey, don't do it. Of course if someone thinks it would never be anything gamey because the game allows to do it, well, then everything goes overboard.

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Historiker

I don't have to be acceptable as an opponent in your eyes and if you want to use every trick the game allows you to use then this is fine with me. And I don't try to find an excuse for every exploit but I do have the right to call on everyone using them. If calling doesn't help, all I can do is pay it back with the same silly thing, just to find out the enemy then complains about it, completely forgetting he came up with it.

I think you take it personally where it isn't intended.

I said nothing about you. I used "you" in the meaning of "(some)one".
I said, that if someone uses every possible trick, he has to accept that those tricks are used as well.
If we were to play, I'd either not accept the game with you regarding the HRs you propose, or I'd go with them. If you say "just common sense" and I do para-spam, I'd propably argue as above, but accept your point of view. I wouldn't risk my game because of that.

no, neither did I take it personally, nor was my reply meant as offensive even if may sound so when I reread it. There are many things in the game that have been discussed to death and all it needs is what ppl most often suggest: if you think it MIGHT be gamey, don't do it. Of course if someone thinks it would never be anything gamey because the game allows to do it, well, then everything goes overboard.

That's why you have to TALK before you start a game [:)]

I wouldn't mind playing Nemo, who propably uses everything just vaguely possible. But I'd know what I have to expect in that case. It is sad when hundres of hours playing time go down the sink just because the two players have different understandings of what should be allowed.

absolutely. And to be honest, I thought my opponent would perfectly know what I think would go ok or not as he said he followed my AARs and he proposed a game when I was still playing my last opponent. Hence the reason for only a short set of hr not dealing with every possibility. But hr aside, even with a small set of hr I had great PBEMs going through the war, I may have been lucky to have opponents thinking the same as me.

IMO, bluebook just belittles himself using these things as he would have enough skill to forget about everything that is discussed on the forum as gamey or not (non base landings, pickets or mini paradrops to name the last three discussions). Not only is he belittling himself, in the end, his own tactics will be used against him, see the pickets.

As you name Nemo, I would never even think about playing him because he plays his games as if it would be a beta test. No matter if realistic or not, doesn't matter, all that matters is the max possible result achieved in the game. And this not only when it goes for tactics (like massing hundreds of flak guns in a jungle nest or massed night bomber attacks at 100ft, etc) but also due to discussable strategies that IMO would not be even discussed in real life. I guess he would give up most of India to hold a jungle base like Palembang because he knows that not getting Palembang would hurt the Japanese more than taking most of India would help them. In the game, wonderful perhaps, real life, not in my world. If someone wants to play it that way, I got absolutely no problem with it, it just wouldn't be my taste.

Well, then let's hope he doesn't drop the game when the echo comes. [:-]

Castor Troy, have you considered sending single AKls to the Philippines to resupply Clark Field? If they are in single-ship TFs they might not be detected, and since you've thrown concerns of gamey-ness out the window...

With his looses in Australia I imagine most of his fleet must be there, and perhaps some of your small cargo ships could get through. And if they fail, not a terrible loss. But great reward if you can keep him pinned at Clark.

Yeah, the para spam thing is scraping the bottom of the cheese barrel in my opinion. I have to tell you that this game is like a bad marriage between to people who can't see eye to eye on a single thing, yet they keep the marriage together for far to many years for the "sake of the kids" or some other lame reason. I think you should politely terminate this one and find a more suitable opponent who agrees with your concepts (as I do) because I don't see this marriage lasting long...

I know it is a pain to find a new opponent and restart but a long campaign can be a two to three year real life commitment. Do you want to be arguing with this guy for two years?

It's all about clear communication of expectations. You have to work through differences. Assumptions don't help. It has to be clearly stated.

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Yeah, the para spam thing is scraping the bottom of the cheese barrel in my opinion. I have to tell you that this game is like a bad marriage between to people who can't see eye to eye on a single thing, yet they keep the marriage together for far to many years for the "sake of the kids" or some other lame reason. I think you should politely terminate this one and find a more suitable opponent who agrees with your concepts (as I do) because I don't see this marriage lasting long...

I know it is a pain to find a new opponent and restart but a long campaign can be a two to three year real life commitment. Do you want to be arguing with this guy for two years?

This is just blowing my mind. He asks for bombing above a certain altitude (unrealistic demand) and then uses tiny para fragments (unrealistic action) after promising he would not do so any more (deliberately dishonest or forgetful???).

As far as the game engine not modeling blowing up a few rail lines, neither side can do it.

On the Recon thing, I know about the UI leak of trying to select hexes to see if there are ground units there. I never use it because it is a gamey exploit of a UI leak.
- There is another possibility, but of course I have no idea what he is actually doing. If you set a unit to recon and give it NO TARGET, AFAIK it goes out and recons on its own, including the countryside. In India the Allies get a bunch of British and Indian recon units with a dozen or so small planes each. I use some units to recon specific bases or troop formations I know about, but I also use others with no target so they can find anybody trying to sneak through the jungle or show up from an unexpected direction. Often they do find such enemy units (but apparently not always or not always in a timely manner). I do not know of the developers ever confirming this mechanism but it seems to work and is realistic for a recon unit ("Go recon the countryside and see if anybody is there.") because that is part of their job. As I said I have no idea what he is actually doing.

I have to pretty much echo crsutton: at this point just do what you think is right and if he quits he quits.

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: castor troy











--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 1st RAN Base Force, at 73,130 , near Wyndham

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 34 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 6



No Japanese losses


Allied ground losses:
52 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


1st RAN Base force has been combined at Broome weeks ago and was sent over the trails towards Katherine... no idea how the enemy was able to suddenly spot the unit in the middle of nowhere without any recon before... no enemy base or unit within three hexes...

This is one of the most frustrating and infuriating weaknesses of the game engine. It happens to me repeatedly every game in the Ironman scenario against the AI, especially in China. Units hundreds of miles from any enemy ground unit capable of spotting them and that no enemy plane has ever flown recon within a hundreds of miles of become automatic targets as soon as they go from combat mode to move mode. The AI automatically knows where each and every vulnerable target is. And it's not just the strategic AI in a game agaisnt the AI it's also the tactical AI in player v.s player games as demonstrated here. Very, very frustrating, but there is nothing to be done about it. [:(]

hmm, do you think bluebook has just put his bombers on ground attack without ordering a target and the AI chose that target to be attacked? I was amazed to see that strike and thought it would be a waste as I would keep the Betties on nav attack non stop but just setting them to ground attack without even setting a target would be even more amazing to me.

Sometimes Japan get radio transmissions from enemy LCU outside base hexes, and get 1/1 detection level. You can tell that there's a unit there, nothing more.

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Yeah, the para spam thing is scraping the bottom of the cheese barrel in my opinion. I have to tell you that this game is like a bad marriage between to people who can't see eye to eye on a single thing, yet they keep the marriage together for far to many years for the "sake of the kids" or some other lame reason. I think you should politely terminate this one and find a more suitable opponent who agrees with your concepts (as I do) because I don't see this marriage lasting long...

I know it is a pain to find a new opponent and restart but a long campaign can be a two to three year real life commitment. Do you want to be arguing with this guy for two years?

This is just blowing my mind. He asks for bombing above a certain altitude (unrealistic demand) and then uses tiny para fragments (unrealistic action) after promising he would not do so any more (deliberately dishonest or forgetful???).

As far as the game engine not modeling blowing up a few rail lines, neither side can do it.

On the Recon thing, I know about the UI leak of trying to select hexes to see if there are ground units there. I never use it because it is a gamey exploit of a UI leak.
- There is another possibility, but of course I have no idea what he is actually doing. If you set a unit to recon and give it NO TARGET, AFAIK it goes out and recons on its own, including the countryside. In India the Allies get a bunch of British and Indian recon units with a dozen or so small planes each. I use some units to recon specific bases or troop formations I know about, but I also use others with no target so they can find anybody trying to sneak through the jungle or show up from an unexpected direction. Often they do find such enemy units (but apparently not always or not always in a timely manner). I do not know of the developers ever confirming this mechanism but it seems to work and is realistic for a recon unit ("Go recon the countryside and see if anybody is there.") because that is part of their job. As I said I have no idea what he is actually doing.

I have to pretty much echo crsutton: at this point just do what you think is right and if he quits he quits.

oh he stopped using them when he said he would, which was at the point when he took all his objectives anyway. [:D] I watched him doing so a couple of turns before I even dared to raise the issue and the game is ahead of the AAR. Do it once, do it twice, who cares, but do it to take halve a continent, oh well. I don't want to end the game, just too much time spent already again. I hope he stands to his word and won't quit even if things go bad and so do I. bluebook has the potential to give one a good game as he is not unskilled but when it comes down to strange tactics (yes, I do call them gamey) we just completely disagree. Perhaps it's really like the marriage situation described above and this is my first opponent in all the years when I don't even know his real name. [:D]

the AAR is on hold for the moment. While the game is still two weeks in front of the AAR I haven't had a turn or reply on my emails for the last five days so I don't know what's going on and I don't want the AAR completely catch up with the game due to intel risks (learnt from earlier AARs).

ORIGINAL: castor troy
I haven't had a turn or reply on my emails for the last five days

[;)] [:'(]

Sad. Sounds like your opponent may not be worth the trouble. Communication is the key to this game remaining enjoyable, I feel.

We do not want judge too fast Your opponent.
But he vanish after taking lots of losses. So he just could resign.
On other side RL writing own script so better to wait.

One is true, communication is key to long rewarding game. And if you are not in coma or on secret mission in Afghanistan sending simple email should be in good taste.

PS. From my experience i can say that first weeks after losing Amphibious bonus are difficult to Japanese player. They loosing god status during invasion and they start experiencing harder resistance from allied side every day. And i have few moments when i was close to ask Docup for few days of vacation[8|].

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: castor troy
I haven't had a turn or reply on my emails for the last five days

[;)] [:'(]

I may be looking for a new game... a month ago I had two PBEM running, the first one stalled after the Hawaii invasion was a failure and real life intervening and the second one leaves me with no info on what's up for five days after the Australian adventure is nothing but a failure so far. Where are all those great PBEM partners I had in the past? [:(]

ORIGINAL: obvert

Sad. Sounds like your opponent may not be worth the trouble. Communication is the key to this game remaining enjoyable, I feel.

so true

Just goes to show you need to sort out the HRs fully before the game begins. If either side does not like one, then find a compromise or another opponent.

Its not to hard to say something along the lines of "Look, I have been outplayed/made an arse of the game, therefore I resign" rather than just disappear..........of course he may have a valid reason and be back, but I doubt it.

my opponent and I do have a different view on things but having yet another PBEM cancelled in March 42 because the IJ player's strategy sux balls would be a major disappointment. [:(]