Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

But you see "you" don't count because "you" personally have done more to harm this game then everyone else put together.

Ron for all his good intentions tied up a slot on the beta team that could have been filled by someone actually interested in finding "bugs" because he thought his roll was to rewrite the game instead of finding bugs, you all have paid for that fact for quite some time now. Had someone else who was actually interested in bug hunting been onboard, you all would have a better game because more time would have been available for *features* instead of bug hunting. Ron will probably never understand that. I have nothing personally against Ron, never had but he did waste a slot that could have been filled by someone else resulting in a product that had less bugs which would have resulted in Mike having far more time to work on the wish list instead of fix things.

Morale of the story ... If you plan on signing up for Betas, understand your job is to find bugs not have fun. The number of programs that hit the street these days full of bugs are due to this very problem ... people commit to betas for the sole purpose of getting a free game and getting to play in advance.

I seriously doubt one more person looking for bugs (and that assumes this person was qualified, and willing to do so diligently, a big if considering you're on record as having stated that some--many?--of the playtesters who were brought on board other than Ron proved to be of little value) would have made much of an impact when all was said and done. The system is riddled with bugs. One more person could have caught all those?

Come on, Ray. [8|]

Almost assuredly the problems experienced in beta (playtesting) owe to 1) lack of good organization and 2) lack of expertise. The signs are everywhere for anyone who cares to look.

As for design issues: there lies the crux of the complaints you'd prefer to not hear in the first place. Bugs are understandable (to a degree), bad design and sloppy implementation (OOB issues, map errata, etc.) are less so, least of all when the company had its ears full of intelligent advice regarding same subsequent to the publication of UV. That the company, for whatever reasons, failed to act on this feedback is the responsibility of the company.

Since we already have one tribute thread....i'll add that a good example of who Frag's talking about as that person is already here.

Michaelm

He deserves a tribute thread of his own. Damn solid tester. Understands MikeW speak......has contributed mightily to tracking down the pilot bug issues. Gives me inferiority complexes. I have to read slowly when he and Mike Wood start discecting a save game code-work.

Cheers Michael....wish you had been here sooner!

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

That was never part of the deal. I offered nothing. You said you were prepared to pay for a different design. That's a matter of public record, Ray.

You might want to scroll back and read what was posted ... I said I would pay for the programming if you produced a macro design document.

pg 14 of this thread: (you will note the post has not been edited)

I'm offering to pay for all the coding ... I'm sure Matrix will publish it ... come on ... all I want is the rules (aka design document)

So now you are retracting your offer to write the design I take it?

Not at all. We can hammer out the conditions of this contract, put the money in escrow, and then I'll be happy to oblige. However, you can forget having any of the usual suspects "grade" or otherwise judge my work. You put the money up, I'll give you a design concept that, in my judgment at least, beats the pants off anything Gary's done to date.

This will be no more difficult than to take Gary's core idea for the game system (there is little wrong with that) and lose the bias, ignorance and general misunderstanding of history. That, and this time around focus very closely on logsitics, which is where the main effort ought to have been put from the start. Get that (reasonably) right and almost anything good is possible; get that (hopelessly) wrong and almost nothing good is possible.

Now, I don't actually expect you to pull the trigger on this, Ray, but that's where it's at.

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Since we already have one tribute thread....i'll add that a good example of who Frag's talking about as that person is already here.

Michaelm.

He deserves a tribute thread of his own. Damn solid tester. Understands MikeW speak......has contributed mightily to tracking down the pilot bug issues. Gives me inferiority complexes. I have to read slowly when he and Mike Wood start discecting a save game code-work.

Cheers Michael....wish you had been here sooner!

Sounds good to me. Hats off! to Michaelm. [:)]

Not at all. We can hammer out the conditions of this contract, put the money in escrow, and then I'll be happy to oblige. However, you can forget having any of the usual suspects "grade" or otherwise judge my work.

Don Bowen's not good enough for you?

Ron your best buddy?

Leo who has come up with more sound concepts backed up by solid tests then everyone else combined since release?

Thats a majority vote in your pocket and you are still too scared to commit ... obviously this discussion with you is just another waste of time.

You can cast aspersions on everyone else's efforts but no one can comment on the validity of your design?

You remind me of that game at the carnival where the little squirrels pop up from the hole, you smash it with the hammer and it just pops out of another hole.

"This is for Mogami, Frag, Nik, Oz and any other person who did not understand my point about magic supply. No shipping FROM Japan is necessary so where do all the home built TOE replacements come from? Right from the front lines where there is no HI. "

Hi, I don't understand this. Where are your front lines that are producing this supply?
If you are sending supply to Truk and producing A6M2 there you are not sending supply but replacement A6M2. If you are sending supply to Lunga and producing 105mm guns you not sending supply but 105mm guns. They are not being created at the front they are being created in Japan and transported (in the form of supply) to the front.

This it where persons who believe in magic supply go astray. I really wish we actually produced every singe aircraft and item required in TOE and bomb and torpedo as indivual points because then these people would see it had 0 impact on players who think logistics from the start. It's the players who cannot make the jump from tactic to operations that keep seeing supply just as supply. Supply is nothing. It is simply how we keep track of the load space on transports. Don't think "25th Army in Malaya requires 25,000 supply per month" because in fact if your just looking at food and ammo your way short of what 25th Army requires. Think "25th Army requires 100k load points per month" SOme of this will move via land supply routes some will be produced locally and the rest will have to be transported by sea.

No front line base produces TOE items even if it has heavy industry. The items are produced at the factories. There are factories for guns aircraft and vehicles. Once an item is produced it goes into a pool. The pool is limbo it does not exist on map because all these pool items are actually supply while on map after creation but before joining an on map unit (LCU or Air group)

Only the supply in excess of 2x required can be used at a base to replace TOE so you will find forward bases are the least likely to actually consume supply to replace TOE.

The entire problem is not how much is produced or how easy it is to move it but the simple fact people can't accept that supply is nothing before it is consumed and they can't believe any player is good enough to have what they require when they require it at the front where it permits operations to proceed. We really need to just make points for every possible use and haul them around. But we need to make our AK able to load multiple types of points for it to work.

If you need a gun at Tulagi. You have to build the gun at a factory transport it to a port and load it on a ship and move it and unload it and tell it what unit to join.

I can do this but the end result will be exactly the same.

The first signs of someone talking where they know nothing in this debate is people who
1. Pretend they know how much and of what type material the SRA produced
2. The actual status of Japan during these operations.
3. The alleged shortage of Japanese shipping.

(If Japan was actually short shipping in Dec 1941 it would make no sense at all for them to conduct operations that resulted in there increasing demand for shipping by several multitudes.)

Japan had in 1937 transported over 200,000 troops in less then 1 month and conducted opposed landings with naval support. As far as Operations went the SRA was made by rather small forces compared to what the IJA was used to using. (The Sept 1941 battle at Changsha used 2x as many troops as entire SRA used)

The Japanese commitment to the Pacific war was so minor that the Western Alliance never inflicted more loss on Japan in the period from Dec 41 to Aug 45 (not counting civilians) then the Japanese had already sustained in China.

Agreed...i'm certainly having to ship supply to my front lines in my game as Japan. My garrisons in Burma, Malaya and Java are not self sufficient. And as Mog said....all produced device items must originate in Japan.

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

But you see "you" don't count because "you" personally have done more to harm this game then everyone else put together.

Ron for all his good intentions tied up a slot on the beta team that could have been filled by someone actually interested in finding "bugs" because he thought his roll was to rewrite the game instead of finding bugs, you all have paid for that fact for quite some time now. Had someone else who was actually interested in bug hunting been onboard, you all would have a better game because more time would have been available for *features* instead of bug hunting. Ron will probably never understand that. I have nothing personally against Ron, never had but he did waste a slot that could have been filled by someone else resulting in a product that had less bugs which would have resulted in Mike having far more time to work on the wish list instead of fix things.

Morale of the story ... If you plan on signing up for Betas, understand your job is to find bugs not have fun. The number of programs that hit the street these days full of bugs are due to this very problem ... people commit to betas for the sole purpose of getting a free game and getting to play in advance.

Here we go again. Why does this crap keep flying? Yes, I thought I was asked to help with various design features of the game (as were a few others), that's what is done during Alpha, right? David Heath called me personally. The fact that this was not the case was unfortunate (there was to be little or no design alterations from the point the majority of the volunteer guys showed up from the UV forum because apparently it was already beyond Alpha with regard any change...a money issue most likely). This does not mean I did no beta testing and bug hunting and was a waste of a slot. That is insulting, but not as much as saying I volunteered all that time, energy and feedback for a frigging free game? Heck, I bought two copies of UV just to help the cause![:@][:-] Just because I got ticked with the direction you guys were going with the game, were not addressing some serious design issues I and a number of testers brought up, and were planning on releasing it in the unfinished state it was in (my opinion, anyway) does not give you the right to spread falsehoods about my character. So what if I asked for some opinions outside the dev forum and blew of some steam generated by frustration with the whole thing? Big deal! Had I not accidentally replied to a PM on the forum through my Outlook Express (sending my reply to Matrix Admin instead of to the person I was having a private discourse with![X(][:)]) nothing would have come of this. Unless of course my not agreeing to continue with MedWar unless certain models like land combat were redesigned because they were flawed for WITP and woefully incapable of handling a land campaign of MedWars scale made me a non team guy.[8|]

Seriously, drop the issue. I'm only interested in improving this game as much as can be accomplished given your budget. Bury the hatchet.

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Seriously, drop the issue. I'm only interested in improving this game as much as can be accomplished given your budget. Bury the hatchet.

_____________________________

"Ron, you personally have done more to harm this game then everyone else put together."

Mr Frag,

You want to bury the hatchet? Quit with the tag line bs. Your post with *that* tagline really reads quite funny if you think about it ...

Could you guys hold off for an hour or two, I need to buy more bags of marshmellows.

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Seriously, drop the issue. I'm only interested in improving this game as much as can be accomplished given your budget. Bury the hatchet.

_____________________________

"Ron, you personally have done more to harm this game then everyone else put together."

Mr Frag,

You want to bury the hatchet? Quit with the tag line bs. Your post with *that* tagline really reads quite funny if you think about it ...

Sure, I'll chuck it but I left it there because how can I have caused harm to this game? I don't call the shots. It was a fantastic statement for you to have made. I may have cheesed off some people but that hardly equates to harming it.

I'll add a few more things and I'm done. It sucked that I had my heart attack (sucks just having it period as you well know) but it sucked further because I was absent for about six months. Perhaps I could have convinced people to change a few things during that period and maybe my attitude may have been better when I did get frustrated with some issues had I not had it. Who knows, HAs are a bitch.[:(]

I also want to comment that sure, lots of bugs are in the game, but lots are not, because of the work that a very small group of people from devs on down did. Sure, hindsight says the test group on a job this big needed to be bigger and could have included some professionals but hey, poop happens. It is still be tested now which gives one an idea just how big this puppy is.

Finally, if anyone needs a "praise thread" it's Rick Porter. I thought he ran the test crew superbly given the number of guys he had and the enormity of the task at hand. He must have been an excellent PO in the USN.

However, you can forget having any of the usual suspects "grade" or otherwise judge my work. You put the money up, I'll give you a design concept that, in my judgment at least, beats the pants off anything Gary's done to date.

And TristanJohn said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the game design except Me."

That's it, isn't it? Your version and your version only. No coordinated effort, no one to present alternate ideas or theories, no one to offer guidance or critique. It's all about you going it alone, free to publish a document full of your biased versions of history. The very same endeavor that you accuse GG of.

You ask Frag to provide an escrow account as a "committment" gaurantee yet aren't willing to provide any type of gaurantee as to the suitability or completeness of your product. What a crock! How about providing a draft document prior to any escrow establishment? On, no. You couldn't do that, could you? That would allow others to criticize your effort to the same degree you criticize theirs. Can't have that!

But that shouldn't worry you, should it? After all, if you are as intellectually superior and in possession of such keen insight of history as you claim to be, you should be able to publish a first class document that is above any criticism, that has no errors to refute.

One question. Just how would you propose to present an alternate form of Japanese production and resource management when you yourself have stated that "unfortunately my lack of experience with the production model limits my usefulness on the Japanese side in that respect"? Or do you just intend to "wing" it?

They way I see it? Frag's money is talking, the bullshitter is walking.

Chez

To those who may have been offended by my corruption of John 14:6, I apologize.

Finally, if anyone needs a "praise thread" it's Rick Porter.

Agreed and you only know a small part of the story.

Peace Brother!

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Finally, if anyone needs a "praise thread" it's Rick Porter.

Agreed and you only know a small part of the story.

Peace Brother!

OK Peace! Maple Leafs suck by the way.[;)]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Not at all. We can hammer out the conditions of this contract, put the money in escrow, and then I'll be happy to oblige. However, you can forget having any of the usual suspects "grade" or otherwise judge my work.

Don Bowen's not good enough for you?

One of the few people I can consistently count on to be relentless in his pursuit of truth when it comes to the game system is Ron. That's for the reason Ron is not afraid to speak his mind, no matter what anyone thinks, no matter where or how the chips fall. Ron is special in that regard, one in ten thousand. Ron is not politically motivated, and he has further shown himself to be above the fray insofar as he doesn't (at least not often) respond in heated fashion even when he's subjected to petty abuse (which is often).

On the other hand, just for instance, the CHS project spins round politics like a top. It's a project by committee, where everyone gets his say no matter how ill-informed or biased and or just plain screwy that say happens to be, and while I applaud the effort made by the CHS people to improve the system in principle, about the only aspect of CHS that I'd warmly applaud would be Andrew's work the map. His work has been stellar. (I also think Elf's art work is amazing, at least for my taste, but that's totally subjective and beside the point before us.)

So, while I have nothing against Don Bowen in any personal sense--I'm sure he's a good human being--I've tried that route with no success. This had to do with Wildcats and Martlets, and I was referred to the tender offices of Lemurs! for my trouble. To put it nicely, I found the latter person to be half-baked, touchy and mean spirited. So, for me and my effort nothing.

As they say, once bitten twice shy, so thanks but no thanks.

Ron your best buddy?

I don't know Ron any better than I know you, Ray; I have, however, come to respect Ron for being someone who has the courage to speak his mind openly, directly and clearly. Also, he apparently has nothing against reading a book once in awhile, and on top of that he can put two and two together. Add to this a decent sense of humor, with the almost unheard-of willingness to laugh at himself when the occasion merits. In other words, my kind of guy.

Leo who has come up with more sound concepts backed up by solid tests then everyone else combined since release?

Leo's had good ideas along the way. I'll give him that. But he's not the kind of person to rock a boat or go hunting in the nude.

Thats a majority vote in your pocket and you are still too scared to commit ... obviously this discussion with you is just another waste of time.

That's a majority vote? And "obviously" it's a waste of time?

Let's put it this way. I don't care to put my work up for "votes" according to the lights of any majority, not even by Ron when it comes down to it. Advice? Sure. No problem. I'm always open to advice. Provided it's wise. But the majority is usually wrong when it comes to matters of quality, if you hadn't noticed, so I'll pass and pick out my own ties.

You can cast aspersions on everyone else's efforts...

You have stated an incorrect case. I do not cast aspersions on everyone. I ignore the work of most people, let them do whatever they want and however they want. I applaud work which I find to be excellent, or otherwise useful or generous, I criticize work which I find to be wanting when it impacts me personally, or when I feel my criticism might be helpful.

...but no one can comment on the validity of your design?

Not many around here are qualified to do so, I'm sad to say. You can hardly find a properly written declarative sentence in this forum, and allowing for those who are dyslexic (I believe Russ has claimed that affliction), that's a worrying sign. Which isn't even to mention the regular use of bad logic and questionable research, all of which I find daily in almost every thread I visit.

I'm supposed to be swayed by opinion emanating from that kind of crowd? Sorry, but I don't think so.

You remind me of that game at the carnival where the little squirrels pop up from the hole, you smash it with the hammer and it just pops out of another hole.

And finally, a typically-trite comment in closing. Well, at least you're predictable.

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

However, you can forget having any of the usual suspects "grade" or otherwise judge my work. You put the money up, I'll give you a design concept that, in my judgment at least, beats the pants off anything Gary's done to date.

And TristanJohn said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the game design except Me."

That's it, isn't it? Your version and your version only. No coordinated effort, no one to present alternate ideas or theories, no one to offer guidance or critique. It's all about you going it alone, free to publish a document full of your biased versions of history. The very same endeavor that you accuse GG of.

You ask Frag to provide an escrow account as a "committment" gaurantee yet aren't willing to provide any type of gaurantee as to the suitability or completeness of your product. What a crock! How about providing a draft document prior to any escrow establishment? On, no. You couldn't do that, could you? That would allow others to criticize your effort to the same degree you criticize theirs. Can't have that!

But that shouldn't worry you, should it? After all, if you are as intellectually superior and in possession of such keen insight of history as you claim to be, you should be able to publish a first class document that is above any criticism, that has no errors to refute.

One question. Just how would you propose to present an alternate form of Japanese production and resource management when you yourself have stated that "unfortunately my lack of experience with the production model limits my usefulness on the Japanese side in that respect"? Or do you just intend to "wing" it?

They way I see it? Frag's money is talking, the bullshitter is walking.

Not unusually, Steve, you bring ridicule, bad logic, and misstatements to the forum, this in an effort to attack someone personally. You offer nothing, you detract completely, and you act only for selfish purpose.

What I will never understand about people is why so many (round numbers) must be petty in the way they go through their lives. I also don't understand why many people are offended by individualists, offended by individualistic thought, individualistic action. Well, as another individualist wrote (Thoreau in Walden), "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." And my heart goes out to them all.

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn
Plus, I note that there has been no agreement (unless I somehow missed that, in which case I apologize ahead of time) by Ray to commit to any meaningful change to the system no matter the result of the test, and as that's (apparently) the case one is forced to wonder what good purpose the exercise might serve, other than to point out the obvious, that the logistics model is no good.

I assume you know this, but if not... Frag and Mogami don't control what happens to code. Mike Wood does. Frag and Mogami are unpaid volunteers. MIke wood is the programmer. If you are looking for commitments from Frag or Mogami on changes to WitP, then you will be waiting a long time.

As for a general commitment, Frag has already said, write the design doc and he will pay for coding. So, go write the document.

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn
Plus, I note that there has been no agreement (unless I somehow missed that, in which case I apologize ahead of time) by Ray to commit to any meaningful change to the system no matter the result of the test, and as that's (apparently) the case one is forced to wonder what good purpose the exercise might serve, other than to point out the obvious, that the logistics model is no good.

I assume you know this, but if not... Frag and Mogami don't control what happens to code. Mike Wood does. Frag and Mogami are unpaid volunteers. MIke wood is the programmer. If you are looking for commitments from Frag or Mogami on changes to WitP, then you will be waiting a long time.

As for a general commitment, Frag has already said, write the design doc and he will pay for coding. So, go write the document.

Ray won't pay squat. [:D]

As for who calls the shots around Matrix: I've no idea and couldn't care less. I only want the game to get better. Nothing else matters to me. Nothing.

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn
Not at all. We can hammer out the conditions of this contract, put the money in escrow, and then I'll be happy to oblige. However, you can forget having any of the usual suspects "grade" or otherwise judge my work. You put the money up, I'll give you a design concept that, in my judgment at least, beats the pants off anything Gary's done to date.

Your document has to be suffiecient for programmers to code. If it is not, then it is worthless. As such, programmers need to judge the document. If I look at it and can't sit down and write code from it, then it is not a design document that Frag can turn into a game.