Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Helpless

... For example, very significant Soviet resource centers and HI are located in the South (Ukraine). They significant amount of HI is located there as well. So for long term perspective it pays off to go South quickly not to the North.

...

Now you tell me! [;)]

The Russians have a lot of HI located in the South Ukraine - does the AI relocate this HI further East as the Germans advance?

Yes it does.

ORIGINAL: elmo3

ORIGINAL: Helpless

... For example, very significant Soviet resource centers and HI are located in the South (Ukraine). They significant amount of HI is located there as well. So for long term perspective it pays off to go South quickly not to the North.

...

Now you tell me! [;)]

Pavel is of course speaking from a war economy perspective. The victory conditions that are ultimately decided upon may still weight objectives like Moscow and Leningrad very heavily. From a military perspective, Moscow will always be the Soviet Achilles' heel. Take Moscow and you split the Red Army in two in terms of lines of communication; very hard to recover from such a situation.

ORIGINAL: jaw

ORIGINAL: elmo3

ORIGINAL: Helpless

... For example, very significant Soviet resource centers and HI are located in the South (Ukraine). They significant amount of HI is located there as well. So for long term perspective it pays off to go South quickly not to the North.

...

Now you tell me! [;)]

Pavel is of course speaking from a war economy perspective. The victory conditions that are ultimately decided upon may still weight objectives like Moscow and Leningrad very heavily. From a military perspective, Moscow will always be the Soviet Achilles' heel. Take Moscow and you split the Red Army in two in terms of lines of communication; very hard to recover from such a situation.

Sure, Jim.. it is not in the North though.. [;)]

Very helpful, at least to get some baseline.

Another example could be Caucasus where most of the oil/fuel sources are. Cutting them off can make tremendous impact on Soviet offensive abilities

Very interesting. So the axis does not necessarely invade the southern oilfields, cutting them off (at the Volga?) would damage the Soviet oil pool as well (or let's go after the pipelines).

The bad news:

As mentioned all economy factors come into play in long term perspective

Hope the axis lives long enough

If the Germans reach the Caspian Sea, say, near Astrakhan or in what is now Dagestan, how much oil can the Soviets get through the Caspian Sea or other routes?.

ORIGINAL: Helpless

The Russians have a lot of HI located in the South Ukraine - does the AI relocate this HI further East as the Germans advance?

Yes it does.

Hi Jaw,

On the subject of military-industrial complexes close to the Wesern border areas - how much time does the Soviet player need to uplift his/her HI from these forward areas and transport them back to safer areas.

Fo example - Can the GER player 'Rush-in' with armoured spearheads and 'capture' or destroy SOV IND assets before they can evacuate further East??

cheers

ORIGINAL: Platypus



On the subject of military-industrial complexes close to the Wesern border areas - how much time does the Soviet player need to uplift his/her HI from these forward areas and transport them back to safer areas.

Fo example - Can the GER player 'Rush-in' with armoured spearheads and 'capture' or destroy SOV IND assets before they can evacuate further East??

cheers

Against a human Axis player the Russian player will almost certainly loose Minsk on the first turn before he has a chance to evacuate anything but after that he has the capability to evacuate faster than the Axis advances. The problem is he has other demands on rail capacity beyond moving factories. The Soviet Union is a very big place and to get his combat forces into position to block the Axis advance he has to use his rail roads. Even his tank and motorized divisions will require rail road movement if they're coming from deep in the rear and normal movement of any substantial distance will cause a lot of tanks to breakdown. In short, factory evacuation is a balancing act between the operational needs of the moment and the strategic needs of the long term.

Can you "dump" the factories wherever you want along the rail line, or will they automatically move/can they only be moved to the Ural region?

Factories can be evacuated, oil and resources can't. Right ? In his recent post helpless mentioned that

...HI is feed by resources and generating supplies at the end. Supply is then drives all further economy...

and

Yes, German can capture resource and oil centers. Other factory types got damaged/destroyed. (Need to check if it is permanent). This eventually could lead to some higher output, but not much.Since the growth of HI is limited.

From my understanding, in case the Axis captures more resource centers than their industry with it's limited growth rate can handle, any surplus is simply for the benefit of doing harm to the Soviets.

Question 1: What happens to a damaged resource or oil center ? Both sides were using a "torched earth" policy to some degree (eg oilfields at Grozny). If recovery times get very long, a defender might rather give up an untenable center knowing it is of no use to the enemy in the near or even far future.

Question 2. Factories: some factories were even running with the enemy "in the same hex" (eg Stalingrad). Does this happen in WitE ?

Btw, the main reason I am asking is I slowly get "worried" watching elmo's AAR and the AIs stiff resistence. Whether it is accurate or not it can happen with the current game engine settings. This is why I try to figure out what else can be done and how that would work.

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Can you "dump" the factories wherever you want along the rail line, or will they automatically move/can they only be moved to the Ural region?

Factories must be located in cities but you can move them to any friendly city on the map although the further east the better.

ORIGINAL: Balou


From my understanding, in case the Axis captures more resource centers than their industry with it's limited growth rate can handle, any surplus is simply for the benefit of doing harm to the Soviets.

Question 1: What happens to a damaged resource or oil center ? Both sides were using a "torched earth" policy to some degree (eg oilfields at Grozny). If recovery times get very long, a defender might rather give up an untenable center knowing it is of no use to the enemy in the near or even far future.

Question 2. Factories: some factories were even running with the enemy "in the same hex" (eg Stalingrad). Does this happen in WitE ?

Btw, the main reason I am asking is I slowly get "worried" watching elmo's AAR and the AIs stiff resistence. Whether it is accurate or not it can happen with the current game engine settings. This is why I try to figure out what else can be done and how that would work.

How long captured resources are off line is not yet defined in the rules so I can't give you a definitive answer but they are always more important to the original owning side than the capturing side so you don't want to lose them regardless of what benefit they may or may not be to the enemy.

There is no same hex combat in WitE so Stalingrad can't be exactly simulated. In game terms the Germans would capture Stalingrad but be pinned down there by adjacent Soviet forces (i.e. it would require practically the entire Sixth Army just to hold the place).

Factories must be located in cities but you can move them to any friendly city on the map although the further east the better.

Why is further east better? Safer, maybe, but wouldn't the factories be more useful closer to the front, or is there no delay in equipment arrivals regardless of how far the factories are from the front?

Also: I'm guessing that rail transport costs increase with distance travelled, so it might not be a too bad idea to concentrate factories between the front and the Urals, as if more hexes travelled by rail increases the cost on rail transport, you could move more factories/turn if you'd place them west of the Urals.

ORIGINAL: jaw

ORIGINAL: Platypus



On the subject of military-industrial complexes close to the Wesern border areas - how much time does the Soviet player need to uplift his/her HI from these forward areas and transport them back to safer areas.

Fo example - Can the GER player 'Rush-in' with armoured spearheads and 'capture' or destroy SOV IND assets before they can evacuate further East??

cheers

Against a human Axis player the Russian player will almost certainly loose Minsk on the first turn before he has a chance to evacuate anything but after that he has the capability to evacuate faster than the Axis advances. The problem is he has other demands on rail capacity beyond moving factories. The Soviet Union is a very big place and to get his combat forces into position to block the Axis advance he has to use his rail roads. Even his tank and motorized divisions will require rail road movement if they're coming from deep in the rear and normal movement of any substantial distance will cause a lot of tanks to breakdown. In short, factory evacuation is a balancing act between the operational needs of the moment and the strategic needs of the long term.

Does the GER player have any option to develop a strategic bomber arm that could interdict transport infrastructure??

This would fall into the "What-If" basket, however, does the game provide an option like this??

thanks for the prompt answers too..

ORIGINAL: Platypus

Does the GER player have any option to develop a strategic bomber arm that could interdict transport infrastructure??

This would fall into the "What-If" basket, however, does the game provide an option like this??

thanks for the prompt answers too..

There is no tech research in the game. Weapons become available at their historical times and if they appeared on the Eastern Front then they will be in the game.

ORIGINAL: ComradeP


Why is further east better? Safer, maybe, but wouldn't the factories be more useful closer to the front, or is there no delay in equipment arrivals regardless of how far the factories are from the front?

Also: I'm guessing that rail transport costs increase with distance travelled, so it might not be a too bad idea to concentrate factories between the front and the Urals, as if more hexes travelled by rail increases the cost on rail transport, you could move more factories/turn if you'd place them west of the Urals.

There is no relationship between the location of a factory and the output of production since everything produced goes into one big abstact pool. When you re-locate a factory you want to re-locate it to some place where it will never have to be moved again so the further from the front lines the better.

The rail transport cost is based on the size of the thing your moving not the distance. A normal unit has a maximum rail move of 100 hexes but I'm not sure that is true for factories also. I'll have to note that the next time I move one in the current game I'm testing as the Russian and get back to you.

ORIGINAL: Platypus



Does the GER player have any option to develop a strategic bomber arm that could interdict transport infrastructure??

This would fall into the "What-If" basket, however, does the game provide an option like this??

thanks for the prompt answers too..

You can't bomb the rail lines if that is what you're thinking. You can bomb cities in the hope of damaging railyards but at the scale of WitE it would amount to little more than pinpricks in Russian rail capacity. Given the other more pressing demands on the Luftwaffe, strategic bombing is one of those things you rarely do. I do see possibilites for strategic bombing in games that have become skewed historically but I don't know how likely such outcomes are.

ORIGINAL: jaw

ORIGINAL: ComradeP


Why is further east better? Safer, maybe, but wouldn't the factories be more useful closer to the front, or is there no delay in equipment arrivals regardless of how far the factories are from the front?

Also: I'm guessing that rail transport costs increase with distance travelled, so it might not be a too bad idea to concentrate factories between the front and the Urals, as if more hexes travelled by rail increases the cost on rail transport, you could move more factories/turn if you'd place them west of the Urals.

There is no relationship between the location of a factory and the output of production since everything produced goes into one big abstact pool. When you re-locate a factory you want to re-locate it to some place where it will never have to be moved again so the further from the front lines the better.

The rail transport cost is based on the size of the thing your moving not the distance. A normal unit has a maximum rail move of 100 hexes but I'm not sure that is true for factories also. I'll have to note that the next time I move one in the current game I'm testing as the Russian and get back to you.

After uplifting factories, can the SOV player then move them right up to the Eastern edge of the map - or can they be moved even further East - off-map and out of reach?

And what are the Victory conditions for the GER player -- are they based upon territory held, ie, if GER hold everything west of the line X = longitude, or is it specific cities, or even a combination of cities & resource centres such as oilfields around Baku/Maikop.

cheers

ORIGINAL: Platypus

After uplifting factories, can the SOV player then move them right up to the Eastern edge of the map - or can they be moved even further East - off-map and out of reach?

And what are the Victory conditions for the GER player -- are they based upon territory held, ie, if GER hold everything west of the line X = longitude, or is it specific cities, or even a combination of cities & resource centres such as oilfields around Baku/Maikop.

cheers

You pick a city on the map for the factory destination. Victory conditions for the campaigns are not in place yet.

ORIGINAL: elmo3

You pick a city on the map for the factory destination. Victory conditions for the campaigns are not in place yet.

Didn't a lot of those factories end up behind the Ural?
Isn't that off-map?