Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: oldman45

Before we hand out the awards, if there is a way to test the CD's when the US invades in 43/45. Early war invasions are a bit bias to the japanese because of the amphib bonus.

A test mod of the Mariana's scenario might work well for that. But then we haven't heard any complaints on this front from people playing that scenario.

For John Lansford:

I forgot to mention that at the end of the second day there were 845 mines left. So, 121 mines mostly swept the hard way. My thinking is that the appearance of my tiny TF's caused the amphibs to maneuver into zones not already "cleared" by their sister ships. Maybe more steely TF commanders for the invasion fleets would have stayed on station.

Would it help if i mentioned that at this moment there are no plans to overhaul CD's?

I certainly see no reason for going into the code given the mistake I made editing the existing CD to begin with. Just giving it a top commander and/or increased prep points seemed to make rather a large difference in the number of shots fired and ships engaged.

Or maybe I just got better dice rolls. [;)]

People that have strong feelings about this topic might be better off agreeing to a minor mod of the prep points for specific and agreed CD's for their PBEM's before tying their hands with house rules. Then they just have to remember to see who is commanding the CD before the bad guys show up.

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


The amphib bonus helps, but as Blackhorse said, there's no way, back to WITP, to stop a rapid unload by a player who will invest 300 transports. Except an HR.

Oahu is a different case. It has no land approach. It is the most strategic hex in all of Allied-land. Taking it and holding it changes the Allied player's planning for at least 1.5 years, and maybe into 1944. It makes auto-victory much more likely. It changes the sub war massively. It prevents Allied patrols seeing deep into mid-Pac waters for years. It requires swinging convoys way south to avoid Betties. It removes the primary re-fueling stop for WC convoys headed for Oz. And on and on. It would be very costly to take and hold, but as a Japanese player, I might be very tempted to try.

Bataan? Nah.

HURRAAAA!

At least someone who got the reasons to go there right.

You know fellows,

You talk a lot about guns, emplacements and such.

It is all ok but it is only technical side of things.

Look, you are missing one important point: TIME.

How much TIME would it take to really hit and severly damage hundreds of ships quite far away from a shore?

TO STOP invasion by using only CDs?

And we are talking about ww2. We are talking about a situation that not every gun can shoot at EVERY point of a shore line We are talking about SMOKE and visiuals etc.

Isnt it at least 10 minutes per battery per ship? on average. Give it five or three. Calculate adjusting by counter fire, ammo consumption, chaos, suprise. Plz calculate only CD batteries that could really fire at a same time on same spot.

Now, calculate a distance and a time to cross it.

Bump.

P.S.
Coming back to WITPAE and my invasion: Looses where BS but if we will consider OHAU invasion against CDs only: looks possible in a reall life.

P.P.S.

To say that Ohau was an inpenetrable fortress
because it was US and had 16"s is, c'mon....

It looks like Ohau geology was a much bigger problem than its CDs (excluding an entrance to Pearl).

PLUS: comparing Tarawa or Iwo to ie Okinawa is a nonsence just because of a size and quantity of possible landing sites.

Defender have to defend all of them. Attacker can chose one of them.

Dieppe is not a best example either. It was a large raid not an invasion.

I think that we should rather consider Okinawa, Pelilu, PI landing, Normandy.

PLUS:

How many us big transports were hit during IWO?
How many smaller ships has USN lost during tarawa and other landings?
Normandy?

There were a "fleet in being" strategy so "CDs in being" one too [:D]

BTW:

I have invested over 600 (OVER SIX HUNDRED) ships into this venture.

300+ was just for an invasion of OHAU.

Whole navy except few subs, 2 Divisions of CAs, 2BBs was there.

Hundreds of ships in a supply trains, fuel trains,

every CLs, 80% of DDs

90% of DMS

CVs....

etc
and so on...

The other side of the Time problem is the time to get men ashore without any significant numbers of landing craft.

An assumption that an Army and a Navy that took 1/3rd of a world in 3 months would go for a Pearl venture WITHOUT significant numbers of landing crafts reminds me a very common pre war opinion that :

Japanese planes are made of rice paper

Japanese can not fly
or
Shoot
or
Hit any thing with a bomb
because of their eyes you know

[:D]

Rule Brittania!

ORIGINAL: Mynok


The other side of the Time problem is the time to get men ashore without any significant numbers of landing craft.

Well..they didn't. They just had boats. Which had to make many trips to get everyone ashore. This is why they generally landed on unopposed beaches.

I know that they didnt. I just assume that they would planning pearl. They have not used oridinary torpedoes or bombs there...

I can hardly imagine them as stupid or ignorant.
History makes pre war Allies stupid and ignorant.

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Well..they didn't. They just had boats. Which had to make many trips to get everyone ashore. This is why they generally landed on unopposed beaches.

I'm not saying anything about their intelligence, just indicating some contradicting realities of their limitations. They just didn't have the landing craft available to land that many troops in any reasonable space of time for a major invasion like that.

Hmm, how many have they landed in Malaya in how much time using how many (big) transport ships?

ORIGINAL: Mynok


I'm not saying anything about their intelligence, just indicating some contradicting realities of their limitations. They just didn't have the landing craft available to land that many troops in any reasonable space of time for a major invasion like that.

[:D] Actually I'm looking that up now. Just got done with Khota Baru where they landed 5200 troops from five ships over a night. That's not very fast but I'm headed off to the Philippines landings and then Rabaul to get some more info. You've gotten me curious now! [;)]

which is healthy [:D]
its like a 1000 per ship per night.
if You will use not 1 but 5 ships per 1000....

ORIGINAL: Mynok


[:D] Actually I'm looking that up now. Just got done with Khota Baru where they landed 5200 troops from five ships over a night. That's not very fast but I'm headed off to the Philippines landings and then Rabaul to get some more info. You've gotten me curious now! [;)]

Checking Java...


2,5 to 3h to land

"56 transport ships with troops aboard from 16th Army Headquarters, 2nd Division and 230th Infantry Regiment"

ORIGINAL: WITPPL

which is healthy [:D]
its like a 1000 per ship per night.
if You will use not 1 but 5 ships per 1000....

ORIGINAL: Mynok


[:D] Actually I'm looking that up now. Just got done with Khota Baru where they landed 5200 troops from five ships over a night. That's not very fast but I'm headed off to the Philippines landings and then Rabaul to get some more info. You've gotten me curious now! [;)]

More transports doesn't really help the unload rate. That's still dependent on how many LC one has. It does spread the damage about better though, and is certainly one my rules of invasion as Japanese.

Im quite sure that they have multiplied number of LC accordingly
or that they would planning Ohau landing
which
we have to assume happened in my game

btw:

It is a pity that we, Japanese players have only one turn to prepare a different that historical strategy.

P.S.

My troops are fully rested and organized and in supply now. To shock assault or not, this is a question [:D]

The trouble is:
to land 5000 troops it takes a night
OR
to unload 5 transports in a night.......

[&:]
[8|]
[:D]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


[:D] Actually I'm looking that up now. Just got done with Khota Baru where they landed 5200 troops from five ships over a night. That's not very fast but I'm headed off to the Philippines landings and then Rabaul to get some more info. You've gotten me curious now! [;)]

It appears that the Japanese used their barges as landing craft. Using the Daihatsu as a baseline, which has a capacity of 120 that's 120 men per craft.

!Excluding! weather and geology [:D]

We only need to know:

how many Daihatsu maxed out fits AK and AP (assuming that they would prepare and that we do not have data because they have not invided strongly defended position ever)

How much time to reach [;)] Daihatsu from a ship for 120 men
how much time it takes for a Daihatsu to travel 12000 yards
How much batteries could shot and where
How much time it takes to hit hard a transport per battery (the easiest part)
calculate an effectivnes of a smoke cover
calculate a counter battery fire
ammo consumption per battery
ppl training quality and fitnes
possibility of a destruction of various vital equipment like range finders

plus a DICE [:D]

and we will get it. Roughly. [:D]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


It appears that the Japanese used their barges as landing craft. Using the Daihatsu as a baseline, which has a capacity of 120 that's 120 men per craft.