TM, RA, and BTS Re-Write

[Kitakami]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Just for kicks and giggles, Japan does have 15,000T available. Figuring how they under-reported tonnage (and were allowed to get away with it) perhaps that number could go to 18-20,000T. Could you do anything with that available tonnage?

Single experimental 'pocket' BB/BC with single turrets forward and aft with either a pair of 18" or 20" guns. Or having three guns in a that large a turret of that size. Helps Japan test the feasibility of a super-BB or not.

This would be my thinking too... the Japanese version of the Deutschland class, with 6-8 rifles larger than 11" (although 18-20" feels like a bit too much).

[Admiral DadMan]

ORIGINAL: Kitakami

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Just for kicks and giggles, Japan does have 15,000T available. Figuring how they under-reported tonnage (and were allowed to get away with it) perhaps that number could go to 18-20,000T. Could you do anything with that available tonnage?

Single experimental 'pocket' BB/BC with single turrets forward and aft with either a pair of 18" or 20" guns. Or having three guns in a that large a turret of that size. Helps Japan test the feasibility of a super-BB or not.

This would be my thinking too... the Japanese version of the Deutschland class, with 6-8 rifles larger than 11" (although 18-20" feels like a bit too much).

It would be an excellent impetus pre-war for the US 12-inch "Cruiser-Killer" class:

[John 3rd]

You know...I have to admit...against better judgement...this is an interesting idea.

Timeline:
Japan gets stuck with this 'extra' tonnage that serves no real purpose. No one expects Japan to do anything useful with it. As could be expected, the Japanese begin experimenting with various possibilities.

Germany's Deutchland-Class 'pocket battleship's' plans are revealed in 1928. 10-12,000 T with 6 11" guns...hmmm...THAT is interesting.

Japan's allotment can be almost TWICE that. If the Germans can do it...perhaps Japan can...

France and the USA begins looking at the German design as well. The new American Capital Ship authorized at Washington is created. It carries 3x2 14" guns and has a speed of 28 Knots.

Hmmmm...

France responds with the Strasbourg-Class.

Germany responds to those BCs by the Schranhorst-Class of BC.

CERTAINLY Looks like a plausible timeline to me.

WHAT SAY YOU??

Give me a wessel that is a Light Battlecruiser or a super-heavy Command Cruiser. Put on your thinking caps and look at Japanese designs and possible directions they might--reasonably move. Given Japan's proclivities...we have 15,000 available...can we make a ship that is 18-20,000?

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

ORIGINAL: Kitakami

ORIGINAL: ny59giants



Single experimental 'pocket' BB/BC with single turrets forward and aft with either a pair of 18" or 20" guns. Or having three guns in a that large a turret of that size. Helps Japan test the feasibility of a super-BB or not.

This would be my thinking too... the Japanese version of the Deutschland class, with 6-8 rifles larger than 11" (although 18-20" feels like a bit too much).

It would be an excellent impetus pre-war for the US 12-inch "Cruiser-Killer" class:

Dadman: Can you give me a SOURCE for your five turret BC? I have not found something in mine to run that way. I've found 4x3 12" or the 3x2 14".

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Kitakami

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Just for kicks and giggles, Japan does have 15,000T available. Figuring how they under-reported tonnage (and were allowed to get away with it) perhaps that number could go to 18-20,000T. Could you do anything with that available tonnage?

Single experimental 'pocket' BB/BC with single turrets forward and aft with either a pair of 18" or 20" guns. Or having three guns in a that large a turret of that size. Helps Japan test the feasibility of a super-BB or not.

This would be my thinking too... the Japanese version of the Deutschland class, with 6-8 rifles larger than 11" (although 18-20" feels like a bit too much).

Probably need to be TWIN Turrets since the Japanese don't move to triples until the Mogami's and Yamato. Course THIS could be the experiment FOR Triple turrets...

[Kitakami]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

ORIGINAL: Kitakami

ORIGINAL: ny59giants



Single experimental 'pocket' BB/BC with single turrets forward and aft with either a pair of 18" or 20" guns. Or having three guns in a that large a turret of that size. Helps Japan test the feasibility of a super-BB or not.

This would be my thinking too... the Japanese version of the Deutschland class, with 6-8 rifles larger than 11" (although 18-20" feels like a bit too much).

Probably need to be TWIN Turrets since the Japanese don't move to triples until the Mogami's and Yamato. Course THIS could be the experiment FOR Triple turrets...

Hmm...

6x 36cm/45 in three twin turrets, A, B, and Y.
4x-6x 12cm (or 12.7cm) AA single mounts (to be replaced by 10cm double mounts later on).
12x-18x 25mm AA in triple mounts.
Torpedoes (no less than 8 tubes, perhaps more).
Speed of some 27-odd knots.

I am no historian like you guys, but the above feels somewhat right... and you did ask for opinions

[traskott]

Check at furashita fleet site, chichibu and goryo.....

I REALLY like the idea of those alaskas!!

[Admiral DadMan]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

ORIGINAL: Kitakami



This would be my thinking too... the Japanese version of the Deutschland class, with 6-8 rifles larger than 11" (although 18-20" feels like a bit too much).

It would be an excellent impetus pre-war for the US 12-inch "Cruiser-Killer" class:

Dadman: Can you give me a SOURCE for your five turret BC? I have not found something in mine to run that way. I've found 4x3 12" or the 3x2 14".

Friedman's U.S. Battleships on page 224 refers to a 35,000 ton design being made to carry fifteen 12in/50cal. In the sketch at the top of the page, it schemes out a 30,000 ton ship with a 31.5 knot speed, a 12 inch belt and 5 inch deck. As a battle cruiser she could sacrifice some armor to make 33kts.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: traskott

Check at furashita fleet site, chichibu and goryo.....

I REALLY like the idea of those alaskas!!

Chichibu looks pretty good at 19,000T.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan



It would be an excellent impetus pre-war for the US 12-inch "Cruiser-Killer" class:

Dadman: Can you give me a SOURCE for your five turret BC? I have not found something in mine to run that way. I've found 4x3 12" or the 3x2 14".

Friedman's U.S. Battleships on page 224 refers to a 35,000 ton design being made to carry fifteen 12in/50cal. In the sketch at the top of the page, it schemes out a 30,000 ton ship with a 31.5 knot speed, a 12 inch belt and 5 inch deck. As a battle cruiser she could sacrifice some armor to make 33kts.

Will gladly look into that!

[John 3rd]

Dadman: Can you take the art you have for 5x3 and make it into 4x3 with super-firing turrets on bow and stern?

[DOCUP]

I have been stalking this thread all day and couldn't post. I have been screaming IJN Chichibu. I'm glad someone mentioned it. I found this artwork for it, hope it helps John. Its all I got.

[John 3rd]

From Furushita's Fleet:

Displacement 19,000 tons
Armament (BCL) 2 x 2 16"/45 , 1 x 3 6"
4 x 4 TT + Medium and Light AA
Speed 33 knots

Mentioned in Allied literature of WW II dealing with Japan's naval builds, a ship called the Chichibu was thought to be a Japanese improvement on the German pocket-battleship idea, that is, a few battleship guns on a cruiser hull. The US Navy was so sold on the existence of this fictitious enemy ship that it actually built the Alaska-class 'large cruisers' to match it!

In "Grand Fleet" the Chichibu is designed to fight cruisers or heavily-damaged capital ships with large-calibre guns and torpedoes. Built in secret when Japan was considering withdrawing from adherence to the Washington and London Treaties, this stretched heavy cruiser could outrun all except a few of the world's fastest battleships. Two 16" turrets from the converted Tosa and a single triple 6" turret from the converted CL Mogami formed the main armament.

[John 3rd]

Good to see you DOCUP!

[DOCUP]

I kinda like this version better. Looks more like a raider with the extra 3 6 in guns

https://dilandu.deviantart.com/art/Tsuk ... -447481540

[traskott]

Its looks better yes...

Problem with Chichibu et alii is how to employ them. I have use them and are very dificult to employ... not enough ROF i think, so a good secondary battery and plenty of TT are a must.

The Alaska killer concept is better. I ran some test with a 12x8", 16x6" or 16x5" and ooooooh boy. They are truly beasts..

[John 3rd]

I like Chichibu as a choice. It actually fits with the Tonnage (from a Japanese perspective) and carries serious punch from two of Kaga's unused four turrets...

[Admiral DadMan]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Dadman: Can you take the art you have for 5x3 and make it into 4x3 with super-firing turrets on bow and stern?

Yes, depending on my schedule, it may not be ready until next weekend.

[John 3rd]

That would be fine. Please create it!

[John 3rd]

Taking a complete shot-in-the-dark, here is the Light Battlecruiser Chichibu. Her turrets come from the incomplete Kaga. I imagined a 'typical' Japanese CA and raised her by about 30-40%. Figured that the initial displacement was around 19,000 but has gone up with reconstruction.

Have no idea regarding armor or durability. Think I need to raise Endurance and Fuel. Took a slight lowering of BC Amagi and the Kongos.

Am not wedded to this presently so provide some good thoughts and constructive commentary!