Adventures in Italy

[larryfulkerson]

The Reasons for moving the action to France:
The supply levels in the middle are too low for sustained action for the length of
Italy from where we are looking north. There's limited rails and roads and I don't
think supply will allow operations further north unless and until Rome is captured and
the rail is repaired out to the middle areas.

I may be wrong about the Gustav Line and how ready the Germans there are about giving
way, falling back with each of my attacks. They don't always do that. There has been
mixed success with my attacks so far and I've been concentrating on weak spots.

The Reasons for NOT moving the action to France:
I can't move enough people to France fast enough to keep up with the arrival of Germans
to the front lines. The people in France will always be outnumbered early on.

There are't enough people to guard all the routes leading to Toulon from the north.
Eventually there will be German units moving down the trails so at the very least a
garrison is needed on the roads leading north as well as east.

This will open a front that is difficult to supply for very far to the east unless and
until you repair the rails leading out of Toulon. That may require one of the dedicated
RR engineers from their duties in Italy.

[larryfulkerson]

The expected reinforcements dialog says I'm going to get an upgrade on one of my
fighter units and the British 56th Inf Div is going to spawn at Reggio and I'll
have to rail them up to Naples to put them to work. The fighter unit that is
getting upgraded will spawn at the airfield right outside Cannes, France. So I'd
best prepare a parking spot for him ( make sure there's less than three aircraft
units at the airfield ). And I also spy that there's going to be a lot of
DEROS events for a lot of units. They are probably being transfered to the
fight in northern France.

[MikeJ19]

Interesting discussion. Could you take an couple of strong units to France to push against the Germans and maybe cause Ian more headaches.

I would never have thought of trying to attack from France.

Have fun

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: MikeJ19
Interesting discussion.

Yes it is and I love it. I'm learning a lot about how to communicate with pictures
and how to phrase it to convey the true situation. Plus you guys have a lot of good
ideas every once in a while and I'm greatful. This is a much better AAR because you
guys are posting in it. I love thread traffic.

ORIGINAL: MikeJ19
Could you take an couple of strong units to France to push against the Germans and maybe cause Ian more headaches.

As a matter of fact Toulon's streets were torn up by the tank treads of the SA 6th ARmor units
disembarking from the ships just this turn. Plus a recon unit and some AA for the airfield at
Toulon so I'll feel better about posting planes there. Not that there's much danget from an
airfield strike. Which reminds me....I need to take a look around and see if I can find a good
airfield strike target somewhere because I can afford the losses and Ian cannot.

ORIGINAL: MikeJ19
I would never have thought of trying to attack from France.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

ORIGINAL: MikeJ19
Have fun

I'm having a blast Mike my friend. This is the third set of moves I've worked on today between Ian
and Brian with different versions of the scenario and I'm playing the Allies with Ian and as the Axis
with Brian and I'm having to wear different hats and the details of the games aren't really mixing
in my head because we're so far ahead in Ian's game. So far it's working.

[devoncop]

2nd July 1944

So another month slips by....

Another, somewhat unexpected series of assaults by Canadian, US and Indian troops on the somewhat worn down German troops both East and West of Cassino saw the Cavalry regiment of the 362nd Division forced back across the Lire River onto its HQ support, though staying in good order,and a similar story further East.

Given Larry's comments on the impracticality of pushing through the centre it was a useful reminder not to take stalemate there for granted.

I had several Flak units destroyed in interdiction strikes this turn which is a nuisance as I need the few mobile ones I have to try and protect bridges.

Next turn the strong 362nd Infantry Division arrives, and the following turn the Monte Rosa Division. This should give me some flexibility again.

I am now much happier that Rome, that looked to be on the verge of falling month or so ago may be safe for a while at least .

In France I was hampered by blown bridges reinforcing the troops protecting the border but a few stragglers are getting through.

[devoncop]

5th July 1944

I noticed Larry sailing a British Division (I think the 46th) off to the South of France in the playback so he is definitely doubling down up in the North West.

In the centre there was an effective attack by 146th US Regiment of the 36th US Div and 6th Indian Lancers, supported by no less than 300 P38 and P51 Mustang Bombers and 100 Spitfires on the elements of 362nd Infantry Division and
8th Gerbings Division around Cassino again. This section of the line is suffering now though the defenders held this turn.

As a result of the two developments above this turn I have reluctantly decided to send the fresh Luftwaffe Sturm Division from Rome where they were being held in reserve to support the central belt of the Gustav Line. I think if I wait another 3 or 4 turns for the Monte Rosa Division to arrive and then struggle down from the north it may be too late.

My second decision was to send the newly arrived Infantry Division this turn to Milan ready to head to either the Grenoble Front in the far North west or (more likely ) the down towards the lines West of Genova where I expect the British 46th to show up.

I managed some reasonable damage from artillery to the Canadian armoured infantry SE of the lines defending the Rome suburbs but other than that it was a relatively peaceful turn.

[larryfulkerson]

Here's what's happening in France right now. The 91st Inf Div has formed a sort of
front line to plug the gap between the coast and the mountains so they might be
able to protect the East side. I need to send somebody on those mountain roads to
set up an early warning outpost somewhere close to where it empties out onto the
plains so that the whole thing is explored for the length of the road/rail. Maybe
I can use those mountain roads for an unexpected raid one of these days, if I ever
get enough people into France.

[larryfulkerson]

It appears that I lost two organizations this turn. The US 36th Infantry Division
and some Free French units including the 1st FF Mot Inf Div. I needed these guys
for France. D'oh. More are leaving in future turns.

[larryfulkerson]

This is the west side right now. I've been sneaking units along the mountain pass
road and I've gotten some of my heavier units within range of attack so we may see
some changes this turn or tne next. I'm hoping there's a way to get behind the
Germans on the coast so I can open that pathway as well.

[UP844]

Premise: this is not to be taken as a criticism to the original author. The amount of info available when the scenario was designed is not comparable to what we can access today (e.g. Google Earth/Map). I only intended to point out some inconsistencies (like the missing rail link on the Adriatic Coast) that lead to highly unrealistic results.

The French option is tempting, but I think it is only feasible because of a serious flaw in the map: the actual terrain east of Nice, up to La Spezia and beyond is much rougher than the one represented on the map.

Basically, I see an almost uninterrupted string of clear, plain hexes all along the coast, but this is hardly representative of the actual terrain. As you can see in the attached Google Maps image, the largest plain is only 3x3 miles across (its location is about halfway between Savona and Imperia); there are some other smaller plains at the mouth of the largest creek/rivers. Otherwise, most of the coast looks like the area in the lower half of the image: there is no plaim, just the shore (usually, a rocky one), the road and a series of hills.

The Germans were able to stop, or at least to greatly delay, the Allied advances even when a larger coastal plain was available (e.g. the Adriatic Coast or the coast north of Leghorn), so I presume they would also had been able to do the same with an attack coming from France. In fact, such an eastward attack along the coast was never attempted.

Another consideration: the map shows several airports near Genoa. During WW2, there was no airport in Genoa (it was built in the late '50s, reclaiming land from the sea), with the exception of a short airstrip that was only used as an emergency landing strip for fighters.

[larryfulkerson]

Here's the situation as I received the moves from Ian just now. He's moving a lot
of units toward France including from the north and last turn I received the second
of two shippments from Naples of the British 46th Infantry Division and I'm thinking
of using it to see about the possibility of pushing east from Nice to the west coast
of Italy. We'll call it Operation 4 stair air conditioning. I'm guessing they
are going to need some more people yet to push east. The 91st Infantry Division, now
manning the MLR near Savona, will protect the home turf of Toulon until they don't need
to do that anymore.

Last turn the front lines moved a tiny bit north as the Germans were forced to vacate a
hex or two so this turn I'm hoping to continue that. Also, I've been negotiating in
the middle areas and we may come to an agreement soon.

The plane are all green except one which is yellow for some reason. I keep flying them
when they should rest I suppose. I don't mind so much if they start the turn green and
turn yellow during the turn. That way I know I'm getting the most I can get from those
units. When they start the turn yellow I can't use them to bomb something and that's
really unhandy. I moved some more Spitfires to France so that their range of 65 won't be
so much of a handicap. They can actually reach a lot from France.

I'm going to continue the attacks and see if I can't cause a breakthrough somewhere or
other and roll up the German line.

[devoncop]

9th July 1944

It seems the Allies may have breached the Western end of the central section of the Gustav Line after furious assaults.

The diversionary attack, cleverly sent in by Larry to draw in the armoured tactical reserve was by 7th British Armoured Brigade, a regiment from the 78th Division and 11th South African Armoured Brigade supported by artillery against 1st Battalion of 955th Grenadier regiment who drew in support from KG Baumunk.
This saw the loss of 15 Infantry squads and 12 tanks for the Allies .....the German losses being negligible.

The main attack however a few Km to the South was a different matter. Supported by no fewer than 800 bombers and fighter bombers as well as artillery, the 38th Irish Brigade and 19th Indian Brigade hammered into the already battered cavalry of 362nd Infantry Division and the Reich Grenadiers of 44th RDHD Division

Over 100 Infantry squads were lost compared to 40 lost to the allies.

As a result the area South of Aquino, though visually still in Axis hands is so in name only.

The Luftwaffe Sturm Division has now formed a reserve line to protect the Eastern approach to Rome behind the cracking Gustav Line defences. It is to be hoped they can hold.

The Monte Rosa Mountain Division arrived and with the exception of its HQ managed to arrive without incident by train all the way West to the Alps and this provides additional insurance against Allied mountaineering efforts.

My engineers have had a torrid time, failing to repair multiple bridges they were working on....not good.

In a positive move, refreshed and supplied artillery in the Eastern lines managed to seriously degrade the artillery assets of 9th Free French Division HQ incurring over 25% losses ....

The next turn by Larry is not going to be pretty around the centre.....

[larryfulkerson]

Here's the west side right now. As you can see I've almost gotten into the German
backfield but Ian moved some units into better positions and now I'm blocked. I
couldn't do much anyway because the supply level is so low no Allied unit should
enter that terrain. They would loose so much supply per turn they could't stay
long. But I've scanned the line and I've found at least one weak spot that I
should apply some pressure to and see what happens.

[sPzAbt653]

the actual terrain east of Nice, up to La Spezia and beyond

Thanks for the details. So your suggestion would be to extend the hills to the coast, between Nice and La Spezia ?

[devoncop]

12th July 1944

So Larry hit the "weak spot" and the Cavalry unit disintegrated[&:]

I was lucky in that a failed proficiency check only allowed him two rounds of attacks but a temporary respite only.

The Monte Rosa Mountain Division is now in place in the Alps and I am happy there is no quick route to Brenner from France. The advantage for the Germans is the MUCH quicker reinforcement path than the long tortuous trek down to the Rome area. I have a strong Jager Division arriving next turn so will need to decide where it needs to go. I am seriously considering only getting it as far south as the Gothic Line...the last fortified line that at present is barely manned. The remnants of defenders from the Gustav Line and blown bridges and poor supply will hopefully do the rest as far as holding back the Allies is concerned.

The downside of this is the inevitable loss of Rome as it is outflanked but it was always considered indefensible in the medium term and it is whether I try and use it as a big roadblock, given its excellent supply, or abandon it....

There is now hardly a major bridge still standing so any retreat would not be easy.

[MikeJ19]

Guys,

This is so much fun. I know that I have said it before, but I am really enjoying the discussion on this thread.

Well done!

[larryfulkerson]

Here's what it looks like when I got it. I'm going to try to push and shove and
see if I can't make some headway on the west side and get some territory in the
direction of Rome. There's only two divisions in France and I'm wondering if that's
quite enough. I keep seeing glimpes of enemy units moving south from the north end
of the map and they will eventually arrive in this area and I'll have to deal with
them. The supply levels on the mountainous roads is prohibitively low and I'm
pretty sure it's low for the Axis side as well. The planes are in the green and
I'm running out of good places to drop a bridge. Also, I've got a massive AS level
advantage so I'm thinking of switching the P-51's to CS or INT instead of AS and see
what difference that makes.

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: MikeJ19
Guys,

This is so much fun. I know that I have said it before, but I am really enjoying the discussion on this thread.

Well done!

I am too. This is more fun than the Baptist church allows.

[larryfulkerson]

Here's the Inventory sorted on the "oh-hand" column so that those things that I
don't have any on-hand for are listed at the top and I'm not seeing anything
alarming except for at the bottom of the list; the Canadian Rifle Squads is really
low and I've been using those guys to blow a hole in the Gustav Line. I'll have
to pull them back and let them rest for a few turns. Maybe it'd be a good idea to
send them to France where there's not so much fighting yet.

[devoncop]

ORIGINAL: MikeJ19

Guys,

This is so much fun. I know that I have said it before, but I am really enjoying the discussion on this thread.

Well done!

Thanks Mike

Its a very different way to do an AAR with both players contributing simultaneously but I think it really works as both of us are similar in being open about all the choices the scenario offers.

It has about 75% of the fog of war that would usually apply but is none the worse to play from my point of view I I learn so much more than I would otherwise have done as Larry is such a font of knowledge.