Matrix Games Forums

Another area that received a lot of attention.

5th and last in series: the Burma Road - shown in white. It is colored green when it is open/functioning.

[font="times new roman"]Yennan = Yenan[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]In 1937, to delay the Japanese advance, the KMT blew up the dykes on the Yellow River near Chengchow and Kaifeng, flooding the area and diverting the Yellow River back onto its historical course, moving its mouth to the southern side of the Shantung Peninsula.  As a result of this idiocy, one million Chinese peasants died of starvation.  See your Post 47 for the correct course of the river.[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]The factory icons are horrific.  Can we not have the traditional saw-toothed roof with a chimney at the end?  And what is the difference between blue and red?  Useable after capture?  I don’t believe there were ever any factories or resources in Sian: the Japanese would have moved to seize them immediately if there had been.  And confirming an earlier post: both Sian and Lanchow were KMT.[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]There were mines at Ichang which is why the Japanese moved west to capture them.  Perhaps shift the Sian resource to Ichang?[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]Wuhan-Hankow straddle the river like Buda and Pest.  Today Wuhan is more important.  But following the fall of Nanking in 1937, Hankow became the capital of China, so it really ought to appear in the game.  At the fall of Hankow, Chiang Kai-Shek moved the government to Chungking.[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]Why does the Burma Road go to Changsha?  It went from Kunming to Kweiyang to Chungking.  Yes, towards the end of the war KMT units in the Changsha area were supplied and trained to a higher standard thanks to equipment brought from Kunming, but there was nothing special about Changsha.  It just happened to be in the front-line at the time.  Over a series of games, the front-line could be in wildly different places.  KMT units in Kwangsi, Hupeh or Honan could equally well have been upgraded if there had been a need.  The Burma Road was a strategic route.  In game terms, once resources reach Chungking they should be able to be distributed freely ... or stockpiled.  And remember that from early 1944 the bulk of the supplies shifted along the Burma Road from Kunming were avgas for the B-29s at Chengtu.  They even laid an oil-pipeline alongside the road.[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]I presume you mean that individual sections of the Burma Road change colour as they are interdicted, not the whole route?  Up to September 1940, the Kunming to Chungking section was used to ferry imports arriving from Haiphong.  Following the occupation of northern French Indo-China, the Burma Road was used to ferry supplies arriving at Rangoon.  After the fall of Rangoon, supplies were airlifted Over the Hump to the airfield at Kunming from where they were taken along the Burma Road by truck to Chungking.  Thus the section Kunming-Kweiyang-Chungking never closed, even though the section from Lashio to Kunming was out of action.[/font]

What is the progress with playtesting the Pacific map and in particular China (as distinct from beta testing the programming)?  I am very concerned that the change in scale may produce unforeseen ripple effects, with a series of minor changes conspiring to together create a major change.  The China map needs very extensive testing of strategy, especially given the lower density.

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

[font="times new roman"]Yennan = Yenan[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]In 1937, to delay the Japanese advance, the KMT blew up the dykes on the Yellow River near Chengchow and Kaifeng, flooding the area and diverting the Yellow River back onto its historical course, moving its mouth to the southern side of the Shantung Peninsula.  As a result of this idiocy, one million Chinese peasants died of starvation.  See your Post 47 for the correct course of the river.[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]The factory icons are horrific.  Can we not have the traditional saw-toothed roof with a chimney at the end?  And what is the difference between blue and red?  Useable after capture?  I don’t believe there were ever any factories or resources in Sian: the Japanese would have moved to seize them immediately if there had been.  And confirming an earlier post: both Sian and Lanchow were KMT.[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]There were mines at Ichang which is why the Japanese moved west to capture them.  Perhaps shift the Sian resource to Ichang?[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]Wuhan-Hankow straddle the river like Buda and Pest.  Today Wuhan is more important.  But following the fall of Nanking in 1937, Hankow became the capital of China, so it really ought to appear in the game.  At the fall of Hankow, Chiang Kai-Shek moved the government to Chungking.[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]Why does the Burma Road go to Changsha?  It went from Kunming to Kweiyang to Chungking.  Yes, towards the end of the war KMT units in the Changsha area were supplied and trained to a higher standard thanks to equipment brought from Kunming, but there was nothing special about Changsha.  It just happened to be in the front-line at the time.  Over a series of games, the front-line could be in wildly different places.  KMT units in Kwangsi, Hupeh or Honan could equally well have been upgraded if there had been a need.  The Burma Road was a strategic route.  In game terms, once resources reach Chungking they should be able to be distributed freely ... or stockpiled.  And remember that from early 1944 the bulk of the supplies shifted along the Burma Road from Kunming were avgas for the B-29s at Chengtu.  They even laid an oil-pipeline alongside the road.[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]I presume you mean that individual sections of the Burma Road change colour as they are interdicted, not the whole route?  Up to September 1940, the Kunming to Chungking section was used to ferry imports arriving from Haiphong.  Following the occupation of northern French Indo-China, the Burma Road was used to ferry supplies arriving at Rangoon.  After the fall of Rangoon, supplies were airlifted Over the Hump to the airfield at Kunming from where they were taken along the Burma Road by truck to Chungking.  Thus the section Kunming-Kweiyang-Chungking never closed, even though the section from Lashio to Kunming was out of action.[/font]

Icons for the hexes faithfully replicate those of the board game maps. And the importance of their colors are explained inthe rules.

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

What is the progress with playtesting the Pacific map and in particular China (as distinct from beta testing the programming)? I am very concerned that the change in scale may produce unforeseen ripple effects, with a series of minor changes conspiring to together create a major change. The China map needs very extensive testing of strategy, especially given the lower density.

It might be worth reading the relevant threads on the points you have quite forcefully raised. A hell of a lot of discussion, much of it by people highly qualified to do so, occurred on many of them and Steve weighed many factors before making his decisions.

Cheers, Neilster

Please direct me to a thread on play-testing the game mechanics in the Pacific, rather than beta-testing the program.

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Please direct me to a thread on play-testing the game mechanics in the Pacific, rather than beta-testing the program.

China
tm.asp?m=903208

There might have been a separate thread somewhere about the rest of the Pacific. Can't remember. It was ages ago.

Cheers, Neilster

Thank's for helping!

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

[font="times new roman"]Yennan = Yenan[/font]

Please have a look at the earlier posts for the problem of a consistent transcription of Chinese. It didn't exist in WW2. Yennan then probably was more common. Now its PRC's pinyin transcription Yenan.

[font="times new roman"][/font]
[font="times new roman"]In 1937, to delay the Japanese advance, the KMT blew up the dykes on the Yellow River near Chengchow and Kaifeng, flooding the area and diverting the Yellow River back onto its historical course, moving its mouth to the southern side of the Shantung Peninsula. As a result of this idiocy, one million Chinese peasants died of starvation. See your Post 47 for the correct course of the river.[/font]

It's difficult to get exact data about Yellow River from 1939 to 1945, two years after the dykes were blewn up.

[font="times new roman"][/font]
[font="times new roman"]The factory icons are horrific. Can we not have the traditional saw-toothed roof with a chimney at the end? And what is the difference between blue and red? Useable after capture? I don’t believe there were ever any factories or resources in Sian: the Japanese would have moved to seize them immediately if there had been. And confirming an earlier post: both Sian and Lanchow were KMT.[/font]

You're right about ressources in Sian and about KMT "control" of Lanchow and Sian. The whole KMT/CCP topic could be reworked, including hex control, non-cooperation rules, Warlords and oob's (KMT National Revolutionary Army needs more weaker counters, PLA only a few divs plus partisans).

[font="times new roman"][/font]
[font="times new roman"]There were mines at Ichang which is why the Japanese moved west to capture them. Perhaps shift the Sian resource to Ichang?[/font]

According to a 1930s Chinese map the whole of Hupeh province (around Ichang ) was a big known coal deposit. The same with the Shansi/Shensi region (NE of Sian). So it's a matter of taste.

See: T'ang Leang-Li, Reconstruction in China. A Record of Progress and Achievement in Facts and Figures with Illustrations and Maps, China United Press, Shanghai 1935, Map 2: Produce & Population map of China.

[font="times new roman"][/font]
[font="times new roman"]Wuhan-Hankow straddle the river like Buda and Pest. Today Wuhan is more important. But following the fall of Nanking in 1937, Hankow became the capital of China, so it really ought to appear in the game. At the fall of Hankow, Chiang Kai-Shek moved the government to Chungking.[/font]

That's right, for political reasons it should be Hankow. For geographical reasons it could be Wuhan.

[font="times new roman"][/font]
[font="times new roman"]Why does the Burma Road go to Changsha? It went from Kunming to Kweiyang to Chungking. Yes, towards the end of the war KMT units in the Changsha area were supplied and trained to a higher standard thanks to equipment brought from Kunming, but there was nothing special about Changsha. It just happened to be in the front-line at the time. Over a series of games, the front-line could be in wildly different places. KMT units in Kwangsi, Hupeh or Honan could equally well have been upgraded if there had been a need. The Burma Road was a strategic route. In game terms, once resources reach Chungking they should be able to be distributed freely ... or stockpiled. And remember that from early 1944 the bulk of the supplies shifted along the Burma Road from Kunming were avgas for the B-29s at Chengtu. They even laid an oil-pipeline alongside the road.[/font]


[font="times new roman"][/font]
[font="times new roman"]I presume you mean that individual sections of the Burma Road change colour as they are interdicted, not the whole route? Up to September 1940, the Kunming to Chungking section was used to ferry imports arriving from Haiphong. Following the occupation of northern French Indo-China, the Burma Road was used to ferry supplies arriving at Rangoon. After the fall of Rangoon, supplies were airlifted Over the Hump to the airfield at Kunming from where they were taken along the Burma Road by truck to Chungking. Thus the section Kunming-Kweiyang-Chungking never closed, even though the section from Lashio to Kunming was out of action.[/font]

That's right for Changsha. But historically ressource distrubution in Free China was a major problem. WIF doesn't simulate millions of coolies and river transport.

Regards

This post is in response to Neilster above:

Thanks ... but the most recent post on that thread is dated 15 November 2006.  I assume the mechanics of China (as opposed to the program) are being tested at this moment, manually if the code is not ready yet.  I would very much like to read the sorts of problems that are being thrown up.  I saw a reference in an early post to Greyshaft hosting a play-testers' thread, but cannot find one.

Thanks for your approval, Wosung.  The wrong route of the Yellow River is a mistake every game on the subject has made so far, so we are in good company.  I use it as a benchmark of good or indifferent historical research (as with the Nanning rail-head, which I am very impressed Patrice has got right!)
 
Since the dykes were blown up to create an obstacle for the Japanese, it is hardly likely they were rebuilt while the war was continuing, doubly so since they were in the front-line.
 
I was under the impression we were using Anglicised spelling throughout the map (so Yellow River, not Hwang Ho).  Certainly in all English books of the period, it is Yenan.  Not important.
 
And I am not really concerned at the CCP controlling cities in the rear which historically they didn't (Sian, Lanchow) as I am sure this is necessary for the game.  The CCP needs somewhere to be able to retreat to if Yenan falls, otherwise there is too much of an incentive for the Japanese to attack Yenan and deal with the Communist problem once and for all.
 
But I do remain extremely concerned at the way the Burma Road favours Changsha.  As you say, the transport problems throughout China were of course a dominant factor of the war, but as presently constructed the east end of the Burma Road strait-jackets players into a historical build-up south of Wuhan.  A game shouldn't do that.  For example, a KMT counterattack eastwards from Sian is an interesting What-If that was no more and no less possible, and therefore should be a viable strategy for players.
 
It is a long time since I played WiF, but I thought all resources went to the capital, from where they were used to build units anywhere in controlled territory (or perhaps controlled cities).  That's the classic gaming convention.  Why has this changed?
 
If it is essential to keep a road to Changsha, then at least let us have the historical link from Kweiyang to Chungking included as well.  Otherwise, anybody considering buying the game will think we haven't done our historical research.

Wuhan-Hankow straddle the river like Buda and Pest. Today Wuhan is more important. But following the fall of Nanking in 1937, Hankow became the capital of China, so it really ought to appear in the game. At the fall of Hankow, Chiang Kai-Shek moved the government to Chungking.

If I understood correctly, Wuhan is composed of 3 cities : Hankow to the N, Wuchang to the SE and Hanyang to the SW.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuhan says that "The metropolitan area comprises three parts - Wuchang, Hankou, and Hanyang, commonly called the "Three Towns of Wuhan" (hence the name "Wuhan", combining "Wu" from the first city and "Han" from the other two). The consolidation of these three cities occurred in 1927 and Wuhan was thereby established."

So, I can't call this city Hankow, it was called Wuhan since 1927. Don't you agree ?
I agree that the name of Hankow may have had been used during the war, but maybe it was missused ?

Why does the Burma Road go to Changsha? It went from Kunming to Kweiyang to Chungking. Yes, towards the end of the war KMT units in the Changsha area were supplied and trained to a higher standard thanks to equipment brought from Kunming, but there was nothing special about Changsha. It just happened to be in the front-line at the time. Over a series of games, the front-line could be in wildly different places. KMT units in Kwangsi, Hupeh or Honan could equally well have been upgraded if there had been a need. The Burma Road was a strategic route. In game terms, once resources reach Chungking they should be able to be distributed freely ... or stockpiled. And remember that from early 1944 the bulk of the supplies shifted along the Burma Road from Kunming were avgas for the B-29s at Chengtu. They even laid an oil-pipeline alongside the road.

Well, what to say here... I believe that the road was done that way (not going to Chungking) for game balance purposes. If the road goes up to Chungking, then Chungking becomes an easy picking for Japan, who have no more supply problems to reach the place. But I was not involved in the process of designing the Burma Road in WiF FE, so I'm just guessing. It is designed here as it was designed in WiF FE (except for its Burmese part that was corrected because it had no effects on game play).

I presume you mean that individual sections of the Burma Road change colour as they are interdicted, not the whole route? Up to September 1940, the Kunming to Chungking section was used to ferry imports arriving from Haiphong. Following the occupation of northern French Indo-China, the Burma Road was used to ferry supplies arriving at Rangoon. After the fall of Rangoon, supplies were airlifted Over the Hump to the airfield at Kunming from where they were taken along the Burma Road by truck to Chungking. Thus the section Kunming-Kweiyang-Chungking never closed, even though the section from Lashio to Kunming was out of action.

About the interdiction of the Buma Road, the only thing that is interdicted when the Burma Road is politicaly closed by Japan is the transport of resources into China. China can still use the Chinese controlled portions of the Burma Road to transport their own resources to their factories (for example to Kweiyang).

The relevant rule says : "13.3.3. Japan forces closure of Burma Road : (...) If Japan does this, an Allied major power can’t transport resources or build points to China via the Burma Road or French Indo-China until it is at war with Japan or the USA chooses US entry option 24. China can still use the road to transport its own resources".

So, except that it does not go up to Chungking, it is as you describe.

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Wuhan-Hankow straddle the river like Buda and Pest. Today Wuhan is more important. But following the fall of Nanking in 1937, Hankow became the capital of China, so it really ought to appear in the game. At the fall of Hankow, Chiang Kai-Shek moved the government to Chungking.

If I understood correctly, Wuhan is composed of 3 cities : Hankow to the N, Wuchang to the SE and Hanyang to the SW.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuhan says that "The metropolitan area comprises three parts - Wuchang, Hankou, and Hanyang, commonly called the "Three Towns of Wuhan" (hence the name "Wuhan", combining "Wu" from the first city and "Han" from the other two). The consolidation of these three cities occurred in 1927 and Wuhan was thereby established."

So, I can't call this city Hankow, it was called Wuhan since 1927. Don't you agree ?
I agree that the name of Hankow may have had been used during the war, but maybe it was missused ?

Suggestion : Maybe Wuhan can be called "Wuhan (Hankow)" ?

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Thanks for your approval, Wosung.  The wrong route of the Yellow River is a mistake every game on the subject has made so far, so we are in good company.  I use it as a benchmark of good or indifferent historical research (as with the Nanning rail-head, which I am very impressed Patrice has got right!)

I "got it right" thanks to Wosung, who provided a hge lot of help, and who I trust blindly when it comes down to China.

About the course of the Yellow River, I had maps with the course you describe (as in post #47), and I had also maps (of the same period) with the course as shown in the game. Also, the original WiF FE game's map has the Yellow river with the northward course too. So between the two, I sticked with the northern course.

Since the dykes were blown up to create an obstacle for the Japanese, it is hardly likely they were rebuilt while the war was continuing, doubly so since they were in the front-line.

Anyway, a river is not an obstacle in WiF, so having the Yellow River on any course would not change something to the game. Unfortunately as I said before, we can't change river courses no more now.

I was under the impression we were using Anglicised spelling throughout the map (so Yellow River, not Hwang Ho).  Certainly in all English books of the period, it is Yenan.  Not important.

For China I used the names advised by Wosung. For the Yellow River, I liked to also add the Chinese name, don't know why, this is good looking to have Chinese names in China.

It is a long time since I played WiF, but I thought all resources went to the capital, from where they were used to build units anywhere in controlled territory (or perhaps controlled cities).  That's the classic gaming convention.  Why has this changed?

Resources (RP and OIL) need to go to factories, where they produce a Production Point (PP). The total Production Points are multiplied by the Production Multiple (PM) (that increases with time, and also increase depending on enemy actions) to obtain the Build Points (BP). With BP the players buy units. The Resources move to the factories using railways, roads and convoy routes. So here the Burma Road is a normal Road that has the ability to be politicaly cut by Japan to block the allies to provide RP or BP to China.

If it is essential to keep a road to Changsha, then at least let us have the historical link from Kweiyang to Chungking included as well.  Otherwise, anybody considering buying the game will think we haven't done our historical research.

Well, I would like to do that, for historical accuracy, but WiF FE originaly don't have it, this would be a big departure from the original game where Chungking is rail-isolated from the rest of the world, meaning that an army wanting to go there needs a lot HQ to simply move there. Not talking about even fighting. This is a decsion Harry can take, not me.

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
Yennan = Yenan

Please have a look at the earlier posts for the problem of a consistent transcription of Chinese. It didn't exist in WW2. Yennan then probably was more common. Now its PRC's pinyin transcription Yenan.

Wosung, should it be Yennan or Yenan ?

For Yennan/Yenan: I just googeled it and found both variants in english publications.
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0020-5 ... 0.CO%3B2-S

Maybe it's a Transatlantic thing?! Maybe it's just symptomatic for Chinese political disunity and bad international position in the first half of the twentieth century.

I think gamewise CCP simply just should not have to rely on Yennan or any other city. It should rely (mainly) on partisan units. PLA didn't have access to heavy industry nor to the supply route for the massive foreign military aid necessary for a field army. Its very military weakness and lack of economic possessions was the best defense against getting into the focus of Japanese army. Maybe for every enemy land unit destroyed by Chinese Communist partisans the Chinese Communist player should be allowed to field the corresponding division sized unit of the same type to reflect captured weapons.

But this won't happen for MWIF product 1. And given the close connection to WIF, it probably would need an "East Asia in Flames" module of the latter to get such far reaching changes done in MWIF

I'm not advocating the Burma road ending at Changsha. Has the classic game convention changed?

Regards

ORIGINAL: Froonp

If it is essential to keep a road to Changsha, then at least let us have the historical link from Kweiyang to Chungking included as well.  Otherwise, anybody considering buying the game will think we haven't done our historical research.

Well, I would like to do that, for historical accuracy, but WiF FE originaly don't have it, this would be a big departure from the original game where Chungking is rail-isolated from the rest of the world, meaning that an army wanting to go there needs a lot HQ to simply move there. Not talking about even fighting. This is a decsion Harry can take, not me.

Well, I just found a map of China from 1944 (Look at the world Atlas) that shows the Burma Road going to Changsha and who does not show the part from Kweiyang to Chungking.

On this map, Yennan is spelled Yenan.

This map also shows both courses for the Yellow River, with a not that says that the southern course is from 1938.

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Froonp

If it is essential to keep a road to Changsha, then at least let us have the historical link from Kweiyang to Chungking included as well.  Otherwise, anybody considering buying the game will think we haven't done our historical research.

Well, I would like to do that, for historical accuracy, but WiF FE originaly don't have it, this would be a big departure from the original game where Chungking is rail-isolated from the rest of the world, meaning that an army wanting to go there needs a lot HQ to simply move there. Not talking about even fighting. This is a decsion Harry can take, not me.

Well, I just found a map of China from 1944 (Look at the world Atlas) that shows the Burma Road going to Changsha and who does not show the part from Kweiyang to Chungking.

On this map, Yennan is spelled Yenan.

This map also shows both courses for the Yellow River, with a not that says that the southern course is from 1938.

Here is a bit of that map (1944 Look at the World Atlas).
Edit 1 : This is an unusual view from the east.
Edit 2 : I believe that the "dotted railway" is a railway in construction indeed, not exactly the Burma Road, but this supports the existence of a "road" (WiF sense) here IMO.

Also, I've found out that my Collier atlases also show Yennan as Yenan. Wosung, would you mind if I changed it ?

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

This post is in response to Neilster above:

Thanks ... but the most recent post on that thread is dated 15 November 2006.  I assume the mechanics of China (as opposed to the program) are being tested at this moment, manually if the code is not ready yet.  I would very much like to read the sorts of problems that are being thrown up.  I saw a reference in an early post to Greyshaft hosting a play-testers' thread, but cannot find one.

Beta tester sign a non-disclosure agreement with Matrix Games to not talk about play testing the game. There are many reasons for that. When it seems appropriate I may let them provide after action reports. But not now.

ORIGINAL: wosung




For Yennan/Yenan: I just googeled it and found both variants in english publications.
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0020-5 ... 0.CO%3B2-S

Maybe it's a Transatlantic thing?! Maybe it's just symptomatic for Chinese political disunity and bad international position in the first half of the twentieth century.

I think gamewise CCP simply just should not have to rely on Yennan or any other city. It should rely (mainly) on partisan units. PLA didn't have access to heavy industry nor to the supply route for the massive foreign military aid necessary for a field army. Its very military weakness and lack of economic possessions was the best defense against getting into the focus of Japanese army. Maybe for every enemy land unit destroyed by Chinese Communist partisans the Chinese Communist player should be allowed to field the corresponding division sized unit of the same type to reflect captured weapons.

But this won't happen for MWIF product 1. And given the close connection to WIF, it probably would need an "East Asia in Flames" module of the latter to get such far reaching changes done in MWIF

I'm not advocating the Burma road ending at Changsha. Has the classic game convention changed?

Regards

I have no real information with which to add anything of substance to this discussion.

I can suggust that the pronunciation of Yenan/Yennan could drive the decision.

Yeh NAN or YEE nan (Yenan)
versus
YEN nan (Yennan)