Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

This calculation is not only made at the end of the game wrap-up. It's made every turn. It seems particularly challenging on islands in the late-game for Japan.

How do Japan players balance the need to supply garrisons to keep 75% of the VPs for the base, with pulling supply home to make airplanes?

Late game I helped stave off autovic by resupplying PM and Rabaul very late in the game. It was certainly something I planned and looked at closely.

In addition, I had 10,000 supplies at a few meaningless bases that could be shipped, so I wasn't shipping from Honshu.

Edit: I played all sorts of games with base, device stockpile settings. It was in effect a game within a game, and I learned how the engine allocates supply between base and field. Very important stuff to understand for when the shortages start showing up.

John's decision to not supply his troops in China, is a mistake I think...you need to get supplies to those front lines, but away from other areas and avoid shrinkage. It can be done.

Supply priority was something like: front line troops, fighter builds and replacements, troop rebuilding (afv, art, aa, ija 43 squads only), supply stockpile cities, preventing desertion, vp management.

There is some natural local transfer of resources etc, thru the Fusan straits with local shipping.

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Supplies - Now that you are under 1 Million, you need to see where is at. Hit the "B" button and sort by supply to see where it may be stockpiled, but shouldn't be. You may need to halt rebuilding LCUs as you need it for new airframes. I would keep a running tally of it and check to what you have every 5 days (since you don't have Tracker).

Damn. Supply really jumped at three bases and allowed me to replace/upgrade nearly 500 IJA/IJN Fighter Airframes. NICE!

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

This calculation is not only made at the end of the game wrap-up. It's made every turn. It seems particularly challenging on islands in the late-game for Japan.

How do Japan players balance the need to supply garrisons to keep 75% of the VPs for the base, with pulling supply home to make airplanes?

Late game I helped stave off autovic by resupplying PM and Rabaul very late in the game. It was certainly something I planned and looked at closely.

In addition, I had 10,000 supplies at a few meaningless bases that could be shipped, so I wasn't shipping from Honshu.

Edit: I played all sorts of games with base, device stockpile settings. It was in effect a game within a game, and I learned how the engine allocates supply between base and field. Very important stuff to understand for when the shortages start showing up.

John's decision to not supply his troops in China, is a mistake I think...you need to get supplies to those front lines, but away from other areas and avoid shrinkage. It can be done.

Supply priority was something like: front line troops, fighter builds and replacements, troop rebuilding (afv, art, aa, ija 43 squads only), supply stockpile cities, preventing desertion, vp management.

There is some natural local transfer of resources etc, thru the Fusan straits with local shipping.

Well Lowpe...I am always open and listening to your suggestions. Will allow supplies to build a little more in the Home Islands and then transport some to the mainland.

I've been moving excess supply from various bases to where I want it. Examples right now include Lae, Lunga, Rabaul, and Hollandia. We intend to really fo after his supply lines in a continuous manner.

At a very minimum, I would think you would want to keep the troops supplied on the Shanghai front.

I turned off all repairs, all replacements, set all devices to stockpile except for artillery, AA, type 3 med tanks, and IJA 43 squads.

I would rebuild and reinforce only those items.

You get up to a 75% malus for no supply.

Oops, you might want to see if any of your units take the new improved light tank (normally appears in June 1944 but units don't appear for quite a while).

The motorized SP guns also should be built...not sure when they show up for you.

It is only a matter of days prior to the enemy arriving at Shanghai. We're holding on to the base to the west by the skin of our teeth...

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

This calculation is not only made at the end of the game wrap-up. It's made every turn. It seems particularly challenging on islands in the late-game for Japan.

How do Japan players balance the need to supply garrisons to keep 75% of the VPs for the base, with pulling supply home to make airplanes?

Late game I helped stave off autovic by resupplying PM and Rabaul very late in the game. It was certainly something I planned and looked at closely.

In addition, I had 10,000 supplies at a few meaningless bases that could be shipped, so I wasn't shipping from Honshu.

Edit: I played all sorts of games with base, device stockpile settings. It was in effect a game within a game, and I learned how the engine allocates supply between base and field. Very important stuff to understand for when the shortages start showing up.

John's decision to not supply his troops in China, is a mistake I think...you need to get supplies to those front lines, but away from other areas and avoid shrinkage. It can be done.

Supply priority was something like: front line troops, fighter builds and replacements, troop rebuilding (afv, art, aa, ija 43 squads only), supply stockpile cities, preventing desertion, vp management.

There is some natural local transfer of resources etc, thru the Fusan straits with local shipping.

I get that, and in a "normal" game 10,000 stashed offshore would be a help to stave off the wolf. But John here has all sorts of bases that a JFB would not still hold in a "normal" game when strat bombing of the HI was underway. In effect, his VP foundations are thin and can be removed in some cases by directed Allied naval bombardment at islands with no defenses except LCUs.

Supply used to build fighters in the HI to defend strat bombing might actually accelerate a loss.

That is interesting Moose.

One of the biggest things I've been able to exploit over the last six months is still maintaining possession of those South Pacific bases. I still have a clear path into his rear without major threat of danger. This is one of the reasons I deployed my I-Boats there. It is to get sinkings AND draw him into this area where a very aggressive Japanese Admiral will be...

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

That is interesting Moose.

One of the biggest things I've been able to exploit over the last six months is still maintaining possession of those South Pacific bases. I still have a clear path into his rear without major threat of danger. This is one of the reasons I deployed my I-Boats there. It is to get sinkings AND draw him into this area where a very aggressive Japanese Admiral will be...

The I-boats would be offense though. This is defense of your VP stack.

I doubt CR would do this, as he's very methodical about his naval game and not at all stick-and-move, but in the era you're in the Allies could easily form ten or so flying TFs of a CL and 6-7 Fletchers, and go island to island just burning supply for VP denial. It's the easiest VP stock available. No prep, no landing disruption, no LCU combat losses. Just burn out the supplies, reap 75% of the base's VPs ("a VP denied is as good as a VP won"), and move on. 75% of an 80- VP base isn't a lot, but it can add up over several months. And remember, he's going to have underway replenishment of ammo in not too many weeks.

Strat bombing is going to win this one for the Allies, but if it were June 1945 and you were struggling to hold to August 31, 1945 to deny the decisive win possibility under the game design, island supply would be important.

Bullwinkle, the problem with that tactic is that Japan has a whopping 19 carriers left. There are other tactics the Allies could use....

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Bullwinkle, the problem with that tactic is that Japan has a whopping 19 carriers left. There are other tactics the Allies could use....

At more risk.

The IJN carriers haven't been a factor in this game for many months. But even if they were, sinking them all would yield 7500-9000 VP. More or less? That's a couple of weeks strat bombing, even at the low rate CR is currently able to achieve without full B-24 involvement.

And CR could fight the carriers and still have surface ships left for an anti-supply campaign. As I said, I don't think he will. But he could. I write this more as a what-if for other players engaged in a more conventional end-game in the summer of 1945. It's a VP mechanism that is not often discussed. Burning supply isn't as sexy as sinking big ships. But a VP is a VP.

And CR could fight the carriers and still have surface ships left for an anti-supply campaign.

I think john has done more to prosecute the war using the KB to escort fuel and oil back to the home islands. I can't figure out if CR is just not aware, just doesn't care or just doesn't play the late game often but for the life of me I can not understand why thee tankers are running back and forth like the Carnival Cruise Lines. John has pulled back about a million gallons of fuel and oil in the last 6 months in not more and has maybe lost one or two tankers.

Just checked and I have lost a total of 4 tankers over the last 5 months.

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Bullwinkle, the problem with that tactic is that Japan has a whopping 19 carriers left. There are other tactics the Allies could use....

At more risk.

The IJN carriers haven't been a factor in this game for many months. But even if they were, sinking them all would yield 7500-9000 VP. More or less? That's a couple of weeks strat bombing, even at the low rate CR is currently able to achieve without full B-24 involvement.

And CR could fight the carriers and still have surface ships left for an anti-supply campaign. As I said, I don't think he will. But he could. I write this more as a what-if for other players engaged in a more conventional end-game in the summer of 1945. It's a VP mechanism that is not often discussed. Burning supply isn't as sexy as sinking big ships. But a VP is a VP.

We are on the same page, here.

That is my #1 question when the game is over and we can discuss both AAR’’s Dan does not miss much but you defiantly have him in a blind spot here

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

And CR could fight the carriers and still have surface ships left for an anti-supply campaign.

I think john has done more to prosecute the war using the KB to escort fuel and oil back to the home islands. I can't figure out if CR is just not aware, just doesn't care or just doesn't play the late game often but for the life of me I can not understand why thee tankers are running back and forth like the Carnival Cruise Lines. John has pulled back about a million gallons of fuel and oil in the last 6 months in not more and has maybe lost one or two tankers.

The Carnival Cruise line is helping the Allies to win the war more quickly.

1. It is sub optimum play to focus on moving oil and fuel to Japan whilst allowing the front line to be destroyed.

2. It is Nero fiddling whilst Rome burns to allow Japanese industry to fall within range of an Allied strategic air campaign.

3. It is irrelevant to have heavy industry capable of working at full capacity when it is impossible to build airframes because the aircraft and engine factories have been destroyed. Without air cover all the other industrial facilities which are not directly dependent on fuel/oil will, when damaged/destroyed, both yield plentiful VPs and adversely impact the fighting.

Alfred

4. Fuel and oil reserves are of zero value in VP terms.

4. Fuel and oil reserves are of zero value in VP terms.

Fuel and oil turn into things and supplies. Without fuel and oil no fighters, no devices, no rebuilt units. Agreed the KB could have been better used in a number of places in the past year but now if it goes head to head with the Death Star it will just die. Not to say it could not be put to better use in places but now it's just a numbers game

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

And CR could fight the carriers and still have surface ships left for an anti-supply campaign.

I think john has done more to prosecute the war using the KB to escort fuel and oil back to the home islands. I can't figure out if CR is just not aware, just doesn't care or just doesn't play the late game often but for the life of me I can not understand why thee tankers are running back and forth like the Carnival Cruise Lines. John has pulled back about a million gallons of fuel and oil in the last 6 months in not more and has maybe lost one or two tankers.

The Carnival Cruise line is helping the Allies to win the war more quickly.

1. It is sub optimum play to focus on moving oil and fuel to Japan whilst allowing the front line to be destroyed.

2. It is Nero fiddling whilst Rome burns to allow Japanese industry to fall within range of an Allied strategic air campaign.

3. It is irrelevant to have heavy industry capable of working at full capacity when it is impossible to build airframes because the aircraft and engine factories have been destroyed. Without air cover all the other industrial facilities which are not directly dependent on fuel/oil will, when damaged/destroyed, both yield plentiful VPs and adversely impact the fighting.

Alfred

4. Fuel and oil reserves are of zero value in VP terms.

I haven't had engine or aircraft factories damaged at this point. Aircraft production is running full bore presently.

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

4. Fuel and oil reserves are of zero value in VP terms.

Fuel and oil turn into things and supplies. Without fuel and oil no fighters, no devices, no rebuilt units. Agreed he KB could have been better used in a number of places in the past year but now if it goes head to head wit the Death Star it will just die. Not to say it could not be put to better use in places but now it's just a numbers game

Totally concur Sir.

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

4. Fuel and oil reserves are of zero value in VP terms.

Fuel and oil turn into things and supplies. Without fuel and oil no fighters, no devices, no rebuilt units. Agreed he KB could have been better used in a number of places in the past year but now if it goes head to head wit the Death Star it will just die. Not to say it could not be put to better use in places but now it's just a numbers game

I look at this a bit differently.

Yes, it is a numbers game. The relevant numbers, a ratio, are 2:1. An Allied VP gained must be overcome with two Japan VPs gained, for CR to get his auto-vic and win a decisive. Any combo of strategies and tactics that moves farther away from 2:1 ought to at least be considered.

Japan, by the time the Allies begin strat bombing the HI, should be out of the HI generation business. Fuel, at this point, is irrelevant for Japan more or less. Supply is king. Of the ways to generate supply, HI factories and refineries (I think refineries don't generate in this mod though?) are both highly inefficient relative to LI. The opportunity cost Japan paid here to haul hundreds of thousands of points of fuel and oil home was a waste compared to what the IJN could have been doing to slow the Allies advance through the PI and Formosa. Supply should have rested on LI, and it should have been saved. Perhaps some was. But it's also true that not taking all of China in 1942 gives away huge LI production for the mid-war years, supply that can backstop the end-game.

The naval war is over. CR is for sure playing as if he does not care about losses outside the front theater of operations. The war will be decided in the air. And by VPs.

So, if 2:1 is the relevant ratio, why not slam the KB into the USN off the China coast? Seriously. Leyte Gulf was not a bad idea; it just didn't work. Every carrier sunk is worth two IJN carriers sunk. If they sink with their air wings, great. So far CR is using naval air to strat bomb and support strat bombing to an amazing degree. Why? No risk. (KAMIS?!) If the USN is taken off the table, the ratio gets better, the assets supporting the Army bombers go away, or at least have to go ashore, supply ops onto the coast are more dangerous. And there's no downside for Japan, except the emotion inherent in sacrificing the fleet. It's defense time here. Offense left town.

Yes, Japan should produce fighters as long as possible. Should have already stockpiled, but sure, if CR lets the factories live, use them. A destroyed 4E is in effect worth 4 VP. And any fuel Japan did haul home, sure, use it for HI and take the supply dribbles as dessert. But hauling the fuel home at all wasn't the best move. A attrition battle at the PI or Formosa was.