Matrix Games Forums

Sorry Jon, easy to get carried away. By the way, Gary says thanks for going so far in the game as it's helped his AI a lot. He realized he had special defense zones set up that were not defending key cities from the south but mostly from the west. Next time you play it won't be quite so easy to pocket troops in those key cities like Tula and Voronezh coming from the south. Of course, I'm still rooting for the AI and General Mud.

Don't pull the plug on Jon just yet!

Stuart, funny you should say the swap of corps. I didn't have the AP's this turn but it's in the works...Already thunk it...

Well then... I've always rather fancied myself as a rather dashing, young (!) and ambitious Aide-de-Campe!

Is everyone other than Stuart pulling for the Soviets. Hell even Joel is agianst me...Btw Joel its 23 months of testing this game for you now, it was 17 for WBTS. Time does fly...I'm about ready to run the Soviet turn, If your wondering I only have 768 mb of ram, the game runs fine with it, however the AI move takes about a half an hour to complete...Ah but I talked the wife into getting a 1 gig chip next month, really been kissing up to her...lol...

Well one last (ss) level 4. This is pretty, I'll let you draw conclustions...

Oh, no, there are a few others pulling for you too.

Moskow shall soon be encircled and General Mud shall stop the soviet counter attacks as well. Your railheads are near the front so your supply, even with mud, looks good.

Give em he** and let them eat snow this fall.

I was wondering if your planning on activating the 3rd PZ army and getting them into the mix before long. I noticed that the Russian's pulled back in the center in a couple of hexes. Actually I'd kind of like to see what happens if the German's take Moscow.

Sath

In due time sath, 3rd PzA will join the party. I get 45 ap's a turn, and they have to be used wisely. Most of them have been used getting this disorganised army in order...I really was tempted to take those 2 hexs, but I would vacate my level 4 forts. I have enough crap going on in the south now I don't need any other headaches...

(BAR) Well theres troubles in paridise. There hitting 17th left hard and it looks there more in store.I already pulled 2 divisions there and may need more...Hum who wondered why they had forces there. It's playing my game now, spreading me out...The clock is really ticking...

(DAR) well the attack was blasted back, over 130 soviet tanks were crushed and I lost 2... The real problem is I sent this turn upstairs because of AI brainfarts up north, so it may be a couple of days before this AAR goes forward...So yes I will replay this attack, damn I hit them so hard with air and followed it up...Oh well...

These AARs are really facsinating to review (I am rooting for Pyledriver[&o]) but  seeing that this game has been in testing for two years [X(] in the search for bugs I am wondering if analysis paralysis isn't starting to set in. I am aslo concered that turning into the search for perfect AI isn't turning into the search for the Holy Grail[:-]. Mind you I don't want a buggy game and I do want a challenging AI opponent but when is it going to be good enough?

not fair mate

you don't know what the game looked like when Jon started, or what it looked like when I started

and as stated, this is Alpha, the stuff you are asking about is late beta

To be fair the game started out as an idea[:D], completely unplayable for anyone but Gary[:'(]. I am not trying to slam anyone but having been in situations similar to this in business I know how easy it is to get lost in the search for perfection without realizing it. After reading the AARs by PD and Elmo3 I am concerned that the developers are trying to program a response to each and every situation that can exist in the game. I DO want as good as game as can be produced, I am still playing WitP 6 years later, but like I said earlier don't lose focus by having to program a response to every little (un)imaginable situation.
Having done some wargame programing in my younger days I have some inkling of how difficult the AI can be but I also know that it will never equal a human player and I get the feeling that is what they are trying to achieve.
I think what has been achieved so far is remarkable and I am hoping that the boundaries of game AIs have been stretched. But what it really boils down to is that I want to play this damn game NOW!!![;)]

Funny, some say that we aren't making the AI good enough, then others say that we are working too hard to obtain perfection. I can proudly say that as long as I'm managing this project, we will not obtain (nor strive for) perfection! [:)]

At this time we are not holding up the game to improve the AI, and the extra work on the AI is not having a major impact on the release date. We are currently working for several things that Gary can't do, so his AI is not impacting the critical path to release. At the point that his time and AI work is the critical path, then this game will probably be released (i.e. in my opinion the AI is good enough, or at least will be good enough by the time everything else is done). The good news is we have Gary and our testers working to improve the AI while we're working to get other things done.

In the end, good old fashioned analog meat intelligence has its advantages over digital. Nobody has ever quite figured out how to make a machine read a map. Wargames just aren't susceptible, thus far, to the Deep Blue brute force approach, especially not a monster wargame on WitE scale.
 
Within these constraints, I think the AI is good enough for government work and will give entry level players a run for its money. There will necessarily come a point where a canny and experienced human gamer will beat the machine, however. That's just the way it is. If the devs can contrive to reasonably delay that point, then I'll be satisfied.

Unfortunately, some folks rush their product to market, and the quality and end consumer suffer. I appreciate the extra work that is going into making a quality product.All the extra time that is being spent improving the AI is fine with me. The less AI brainfarts, the better the gameplay.

Thanks for the reassurance Joel. 

Surely the objective should never be a perfect AI. War is barely controlled chaos ("no plan survives first contact with the enemy") and you win by attempting to exploit your opponent's weaknesses. No weaknesses, no game. [:)]

Brian, I hope this AAR will persuade you to play a pbem once the game will be released [:)]