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RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release)
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:38 am
by Icemania
Agree ... although the Carriers were easy they are already done ... it's all the rest that await!
Blackstork, my bad, the race files will need to change in many cases to ensure that Tractor Beams are researched by the AI.
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release)
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:46 am
by Blackstork
Well if it needed for such anticipated and sacred task as tractors its cool, only thing that I will need is understanding of what been changed and what not . (if its only research queues for certain races I would be happy to know that and just see update zip. That will ensure smooth integration, and we'll keep in touch and I am sure all will be OK.
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release)
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:35 pm
by FrancoisH
My bad, I didn't thought reporting this little bug was putting you in so much trouble
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release)
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:42 pm
by Icemania
Your good dude, we want these ideas to improve the Mods! No better time than now to include the cool stuff from the latest patch.
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release)
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:49 pm
by Blackstork
Its cool Francois. By testing and finding those issues you helped a lot to two mods and megamod idea at once, and a lot. Its actually appreciated.
And as Icemanias said - this is opportunity to make upgrade for tractors.
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release)
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:26 pm
by Icemania
At the moment Resupply Ships are not used by the AI's in this Mod (well until they get beyond the Research Orders built anyway). That reflects my personal preferences.
Human players will be able to use the designs if they want now that I've fixed the docking bays, coming in 1.02.
The question I have for you all is whether I should change the AI's here to use Resupply Ships. Military Ships in the Mod have a lot more fuel cells than Vanilla, a lot more range, and they need to refuel far less frequently. The Research needed would slow down something else e.g. Construction Size research. Does this really help the AI?
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release)
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:31 pm
by FrancoisH
That's true the range is high, but depending on the research you chose, could help to get those at some point, but that's only my way of playing. But I do not use auto research now, I'm trying things out. I'll again use it with your mod so I can give you a better answer.
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release)
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:35 pm
by Blackstork
I think it should be done for certain design preference races. Races with hyper navigation theme like Dhayut (which been taken to more distinct levels in beyond) and speed races could fit more fuel bays etc. Power races could use resupply ships etc. The current AI mod build great for hi hyper speed races (its well noticeable on beyond where dhayuts ai stack more 40% of hyperspeed from racial admirals and zap thru galaxy helping alliance members)
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release)
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:36 pm
by Hikikomori
I find it rather difficult to find a use for a supply ship before they become practically obsolete with the extended ranges that the better cells and drives allow.
The AI should be even more pressed to use them properly. Apart from pirates i do not see real use for them.
They are too expensive and too late to build/research. When i have them, i usually don't need them anymore.
Its far more reliable and easy to sacrifice a little space for additional fuel cells than to maintain and protect supply ships.
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release)
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:23 pm
by Blackstork
Well I agree with you. It should be not prioritized in race file queues, but Ai will get to end of queues and build them. Their design should be working - some races will be able to benefit from them at late stages (well more in beyond mod cause there races which have penalty to hyper navigation speed...which is solved with proper secondary population)
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release)
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:47 pm
by Tanaka
ORIGINAL: Hikikomori
I find it rather difficult to find a use for a supply ship before they become practically obsolete with the extended ranges that the better cells and drives allow.
The AI should be even more pressed to use them properly. Apart from pirates i do not see real use for them.
They are too expensive and too late to build/research. When i have them, i usually don't need them anymore.
Its far more reliable and easy to sacrifice a little space for additional fuel cells than to maintain and protect supply ships.
How about throwing some spice in and moving them down the research que and letting them be built early game when they actually can be really useful? This would definitely help the AI! [8D]
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release)
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:18 pm
by Hikikomori
I would like that too, not just for the AI. [;)]
I have early on always trouble with my explorers turning around halfway. With the more gradual(and awesome btw) and slower early hyperdrives of AI-Mod/Research Rebalanced it just got a lot "worse".
I always thought it would be cool to send them a supply ship that extends their range, but you have to decide between supply ships, or advanced construction(one of those anyway) or damage control. All are rather expensive, tier 3 i believe. It just makes more sense to get increased construction size(and speed) and cram a couple additional fuel cells in there than to use a supply ship.
If it was a cheap start tech, it would be at least viable. But to function properly they have to be rather big.
I would prefer them unarmed, but with a construction size bonus, and a prerequisite like "must have 20% docking bays" etc.
But maybe a 230 supplyship would work too.
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release)
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:33 pm
by Blackstork
I agree with both 2 last posts, i think this could be best solution for the issue and question.
Making them viable will create more options for different approach in gameplay both for humans and ais, deleting whole concept is much worse solution than attempt to fix it.
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release)
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:33 pm
by Tanaka
ORIGINAL: Hikikomori
I would like that too, not just for the AI. [;)]
I have early on always trouble with my explorers turning around halfway. With the more gradual(and awesome btw) and slower early hyperdrives of AI-Mod/Research Rebalanced it just got a lot "worse".
I always thought it would be cool to send them a supply ship that extends their range, but you have to decide between supply ships, or advanced construction(one of those anyway) or damage control. All are rather expensive, tier 3 i believe. It just makes more sense to get increased construction size(and speed) and cram a couple additional fuel cells in there than to use a supply ship.
If it was a cheap start tech, it would be at least viable. But to function properly they have to be rather big.
I would prefer them unarmed, but with a construction size bonus, and a prerequisite like "must have 20% docking bays" etc.
But maybe a 230 supplyship would work too.
Exactly they would have to be very weak and fragile fuel ships so they could fit into the 230 size so they would need to be escorted. And yes they would be so much more useful early game. Would be super useful for pirates too! Im really liking this idea!
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release)
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:03 pm
by Hikikomori
Normally it is a bad thing to remove strategic decisions from a 4X game, but in the case of a almost never used concept i propose incorporating supply ships with a more useful and related research.
I don't know what to do with the shipyard wonder tech though, it is a dead end tech atm, and without supplyships it is maybe too unattractive.
But i would include supply ships in either standard fuel cells, or, if we do not want it to be in another research tree, in one of the early construction techs. Both variants have either an tier 2 or tier 3 option, which would move it one or two tiers down and away from a dead end.
Both variants would also have the advantage of enabling the player to incorporate supply ships into the next designs, and plan their layout with them in mind, already looking for suitable locations for placing them.
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release)
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:42 pm
by PsyKoSnake
ORIGINAL: Icemania
At the moment Resupply Ships are not used by the AI's in this Mod (well until they get beyond the Research Orders built anyway). That reflects my personal preferences.
Human players will be able to use the designs if they want now that I've fixed the docking bays, coming in 1.02.
The question I have for you all is whether I should change the AI's here to use Resupply Ships. Military Ships in the Mod have a lot more fuel cells than Vanilla, a lot more range, and they need to refuel far less frequently. The Research needed would slow down something else e.g. Construction Size research. Does this really help the AI?
I dont think the ressuply ship will help the Ai much, with the optimized design
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release)
Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:35 am
by Tanaka
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release)
Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:06 am
by Icemania
Let's talk tactics, preliminary thoughts are as follows.
TacticsWeaker and TacticsStronger
Apply Point Blank for:
(a) Any race with Beam & Wave Weapons because it's fundamental to the weapon type (Gizurean, Mechanoid, Sluken, Wekkarus, Phaerax, Yl'ta)
(b) Torpedoes if the race is Aggressive (Boskara, Kiadian, Shakturi, Keskudon)
Otherwise All Weapons as that is appropriate for other weapons types.
Used for Military Ships and Base/Ports/Stations.
InvasionTactics and FleeWhen
(a) For Aggressive races, Invade Immediately and Never Flee
(b) For Passive races, Invade When Clear and Shields at 20%
Used for Military Ships.
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release)
Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:24 am
by Icemania
With Pirates, I'll assume they are Aggressive, using the above.
RE: AI Improvement Mod (1.01 Release)
Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:25 am
by Blackstork
I think fleeing at 20% is big improvement for any Ai cause Ai will actually save its ships and retreat them from battle opposed to leaving them in the fray for few moments and lose them.
At least big expensive ships could be flee 20% shields. I got impression that this improves a is fleet survival at grand measure.
If there were another parameter which defines overpower ratio to allow/disallow fleeng....
