Matrix Games Forums

JanSako wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2023 4:18 pm They need to have at least some Low Nav training for this.
The issue with Avengers was the CAP, not the torps.

Actually, the Low Nav training is not needed for this. You get 4 times more chances for a hit.

? Low Nav check is used for bombing under 2k, which really just means 1k and 100'.
But I don't know the formula enough to tell if 'regular' NAV skill 70 @2k or Low NAV skill 20-30 at 1k will give you higher hit chance. They will have the same number of bombs...

I tried using Kido Kates @2k against USN CV's before because they weren't hitting crap with torps but the results were... not great.

Yes, at 2k with bombs as the ordinance. But 1k with Low Naval with torpedoes as the ordinance but no torpedoes available, they will use bombs.

Yeah, I know the tactic, and won't use it.

Okay.

Ranger, I seem to constantly disappoint you with all your tactics I won't use....lols.

Keep em coming, I have used some...

Japan pulled this little raid off, a few days ago. I saved the ship.

But if those guys would have been dropping 4 250kg bombs instead of 2....the losses would have been substantial...

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Quinhon at 65,69

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 38 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 16 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 13
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 20

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 4 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
APA Henderson, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
APA Barnett
APA McCawley

Aircraft Attacking:
13 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 2000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring APA Henderson

Lowpe wrote: Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:10 pm Ranger, I seem to constantly disappoint you with all your tactics I won't use....lols.

Keep em coming, I have used some...

I try to be efficient and effective. I found that tactic by accident but I also don't play against people yet. The computer cheats anyway. But you should see what Nells carrying 800kg bombs do at 1k feet on ships in Manila!

JanSako wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2023 6:29 pm ? Low Nav check is used for bombing under 2k, which really just means 1k and 100'.
But I don't know the formula enough to tell if 'regular' NAV skill 70 @2k or Low NAV skill 20-30 at 1k will give you higher hit chance. They will have the same number of bombs...

I tried using Kido Kates @2k against USN CV's before because they weren't hitting crap with torps but the results were... not great.

The greater effectiveness of the 1K LowN attack is apparent at game start when you set the Dutch bombers for that. These inexperienced and poorly led pilots get twice as many hits as compared with NavB attacks at 2K. Fighters with bombs can do LowN too - against soft skinned targets. Japanese AA is very poor on such vessels in the early game.

BBfanboy wrote: Mon Aug 07, 2023 2:04 am

JanSako wrote: Sat Aug 05, 2023 6:29 pm ? Low Nav check is used for bombing under 2k, which really just means 1k and 100'.
But I don't know the formula enough to tell if 'regular' NAV skill 70 @2k or Low NAV skill 20-30 at 1k will give you higher hit chance. They will have the same number of bombs...

I tried using Kido Kates @2k against USN CV's before because they weren't hitting crap with torps but the results were... not great.

The greater effectiveness of the 1K LowN attack is apparent at game start when you set the Dutch bombers for that. These inexperienced and poorly led pilots get twice as many hits as compared with NavB attacks at 2K. Fighters with bombs can do LowN too - against soft skinned targets. Japanese AA is very poor on such vessels in the early game.

Certainly with skill levels being equal the Low Nav attack will get more hits, no question about that. My supposition was that his bombers are trained in Torp and Nav skills to 70 but not trained in LOW Nav at all. Will they still get more hits at 1k unskilled or at 2k highly skilled? And where is the tipping point?

Sept 28, 1943

Once again I prove poor at predicting IJN ship movement, but tried to cover most bases...our two mtb fights where we launched torpedoes:
Night Time Surface Combat, near Namlea at 76,107, Range 1,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
xAK Nanko Maru
xAK Tamaki Maru
xAK Kyokko Maru
xAKL Nichizui Maru
xAKL Nissen Maru #2
xAKL Saiko Maru, Shell hits 1
xAKL Akita Maru

Allied Ships
TM-4
TM-5
TM-12
TM-13
TM-14
TM-15, Shell hits 1

Reduced sighting due to 3% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 3% moonlight: 2,000 yards

Night Time Surface Combat, near Namlea at 76,107, Range 1,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
xAK Nanko Maru
xAK Tamaki Maru
xAK Kyokko Maru
xAKL Nichizui Maru
xAKL Nissen Maru #2
xAKL Saiko Maru, Shell hits 1
xAKL Akita Maru

Allied Ships
TM-4
TM-5
TM-12
TM-13
TM-14
TM-15, Shell hits 1

Reduced sighting due to 3% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 3% moonlight: 2,000 yards

In action, kind of disappointing not to secure any hits, or to engage the IJN warships which was their primary goal. Well there are five or six more PT boat squadrons out hunting the IJN...
At least the MTBs sow chaos in the IJN task forces, running into two more groups:


Japanese Ships
PB Shonan Maru #1
PB Shonan Maru #2
xAK Karachi Maru
xAK Pacific Maru
xAK Kuwayama Maru
xAK Siraha Maru
xAK Kyokusei Maru
xAK Seisyo Maru
xAK Tazan Maru
xAK Hokko Maru

Japanese Ships
PB Chohakusan Maru
PB Rokko Maru #2
TK Azuma Maru #2
TK Kuremente Maru
TK Kyoko Maru
TK Sanraku Maru

Fearing a bombardment run on Sorong, the New Mexico group reacts to the west of Sorong and closes with the IJN fleet...during the daytime. Old versus new!

All of our PT boat squadrons miss the IJN fleets...but was their presence enough to divert the IJN shipping....seems unlikely, hard to keep steaming towards a level 8 airbase without direct orders given. But I do know the local commanders will react to surface threats despite orders sometimes.

They were expendable....the New Mexico's 14" guns no match for the Armor on the Yamato...but she fights very valiantly! Sometimes, Hyuga pops up on the sunk ships list so she is damaged to begin with but probably not too badly, as is the Atago I believe. Both didn't participate until the very end of the combat...but Hyuga joining the fight with fresh ammo levels doomed the New Mexico.

Day Time Surface Combat, near Misool at 80,108, Range 17,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
E13A1 Jake: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
OS2U-3 Kingfisher: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Shell hits 13, on fire
BB Hyuga, Shell hits 1
CA Atago, Shell hits 1
CL Naka, Shell hits 6, and is sunk
CL Kuma
DD Niizuki, Shell hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Michishio, Shell hits 5, heavy fires
DD Arashio, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Amagiri, Shell hits 4, heavy fires
DD Tatsuyuke, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Suresushio, Shell hits 1
DD Yamanagiri
DD Satsukaze

Allied Ships
BB New Mexico, Shell hits 53, and is sunk
DD Bullard
DD Guest, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Sigsbee, Shell hits 1
DD Wadsworth, Shell hits 8, heavy fires
DD Lansdowne, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Craven, Shell hits 4, heavy fires
DD Lang, Shell hits 1

Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions: 20,000 yards
Range closes to 23,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 23,000 yards
Range closes to 17,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 17,000 yards
Allies open fire on surprised Japanese ships at 17,000 yards
DD Lang fires at BB Yamato at 17,000 yards
DD Lansdowne fires at BB Yamato at 17,000 yards
BB New Mexico fires at CL Naka at 17,000 yards
DD Sigsbee fires at BB Yamato at 17,000 yards
DD Guest fires at BB Yamato at 17,000 yards
DD Guest fires at DD Suresushio at 17,000 yards
DD Craven fires at DD Amagiri at 17,000 yards
DD Craven fires at DD Michishio at 17,000 yards
DD Lansdowne fires at DD Niizuki at 17,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards
BB Yamato engages BB New Mexico at 11,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages BB Yamato at 11,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages CA Atago at 11,000 yards
CL Kuma engages DD Lansdowne at 11,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages CL Naka at 11,000 yards
DD Suresushio engages DD Sigsbee at 11,000 yards
DD Guest engages DD Niizuki at 11,000 yards
DD Lansdowne engages DD Tatsuyuke at 11,000 yards
DD Lansdowne engages DD Niizuki at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages BB Hyuga at 10,000 yards
DD Lang engages DD Tatsuyuke at 10,000 yards
CA Atago engages DD Craven at 10,000 yards
DD Lansdowne engages DD Tatsuyuke at 10,000 yards
CL Naka engages DD Wadsworth at 10,000 yards
DD Satsukaze engages DD Lang at 10,000 yards
DD Lansdowne engages DD Yamanagiri at 10,000 yards
DD Suresushio engages DD Lang at 10,000 yards
DD Craven engages DD Tatsuyuke at 10,000 yards
DD Wadsworth engages DD Amagiri at 10,000 yards
DD Arashio engages DD Lang at 10,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Lansdowne at 10,000 yards
DD Niizuki engages DD Craven at 10,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages BB Hyuga at 10,000 yards
BB Yamato engages BB New Mexico at 10,000 yards
CA Atago engages DD Craven at 10,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages CL Kuma at 10,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Wadsworth at 10,000 yards
DD Suresushio engages DD Sigsbee at 10,000 yards
DD Yamanagiri engages DD Lansdowne at 10,000 yards
DD Suresushio engages DD Sigsbee at 10,000 yards
DD Arashio engages DD Craven at 10,000 yards
DD Niizuki engages DD Lansdowne at 10,000 yards
BB Yamato engages BB New Mexico at 10,000 yards
DD Amagiri engages DD Lang at 10,000 yards
DD Amagiri engages DD Craven at 10,000 yards
DD Yamanagiri engages DD Lansdowne at 10,000 yards
CL Naka engages DD Wadsworth at 10,000 yards
DD Suresushio engages DD Sigsbee at 10,000 yards
DD Niizuki engages DD Guest at 10,000 yards
DD Suresushio engages DD Lansdowne at 10,000 yards
DD Tatsuyuke engages DD Craven at 10,000 yards
DD Sigsbee engages DD Amagiri at 10,000 yards
DD Lang engages DD Michishio at 10,000 yards
DD Wadsworth engages DD Niizuki at 10,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages BB New Mexico at 10,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages BB Yamato at 10,000 yards
DD Suresushio engages DD Craven at 10,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages CL Kuma at 10,000 yards
DD Arashio engages DD Wadsworth at 10,000 yards
DD Lansdowne engages DD Satsukaze at 10,000 yards
DD Guest engages DD Arashio at 10,000 yards
DD Tatsuyuke engages DD Wadsworth at 10,000 yards
DD Arashio engages DD Sigsbee at 10,000 yards
DD Sigsbee engages DD Michishio at 10,000 yards
DD Craven engages DD Niizuki at 10,000 yards
Range closes to 9,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages BB Yamato at 9,000 yards
BB Yamato engages BB New Mexico at 9,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Craven at 9,000 yards
CL Kuma engages DD Lansdowne at 9,000 yards
CL Naka engages BB New Mexico at 9,000 yards
DD Satsukaze engages DD Lang at 9,000 yards
DD Satsukaze engages DD Guest at 9,000 yards
DD Suresushio engages DD Lang at 9,000 yards
DD Amagiri engages DD Guest at 9,000 yards
DD Lang engages DD Michishio at 9,000 yards
Range increases to 12,000 yards
BB Yamato engages BB New Mexico at 12,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages BB Yamato at 12,000 yards
CA Atago engages DD Sigsbee at 12,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages CL Kuma at 12,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages CL Naka at 12,000 yards
DD Sigsbee engages DD Satsukaze at 12,000 yards
DD Suresushio engages DD Guest at 12,000 yards
DD Tatsuyuke engages DD Craven at 12,000 yards
DD Amagiri engages DD Lansdowne at 12,000 yards
DD Craven engages DD Arashio at 12,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Craven at 12,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages BB Hyuga at 12,000 yards
BB Yamato engages BB New Mexico at 12,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages CA Atago at 12,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages CL Kuma at 12,000 yards
DD Wadsworth engages DD Suresushio at 12,000 yards
DD Wadsworth engages DD Satsukaze at 12,000 yards
DD Lang engages DD Yamanagiri at 12,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Bullard at 12,000 yards
DD Arashio engages DD Craven at 12,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Lang at 12,000 yards
Range closes to 11,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages BB Hyuga at 11,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages BB Yamato at 11,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages CL Kuma at 11,000 yards
DD Yamanagiri engages DD Wadsworth at 11,000 yards
DD Niizuki engages DD Sigsbee at 11,000 yards
DD Amagiri engages DD Guest at 11,000 yards
DD Suresushio engages DD Lang at 11,000 yards
DD Tatsuyuke engages DD Bullard at 11,000 yards
DD Amagiri engages DD Guest at 11,000 yards
DD Sigsbee engages DD Arashio at 11,000 yards
DD Wadsworth engages DD Michishio at 11,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages BB Yamato at 11,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages BB Yamato at 11,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Craven at 11,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages CL Kuma at 11,000 yards
DD Wadsworth engages DD Satsukaze at 11,000 yards
DD Satsukaze engages DD Wadsworth at 11,000 yards
DD Guest engages DD Tatsuyuke at 11,000 yards
DD Tatsuyuke engages DD Bullard at 11,000 yards
DD Wadsworth engages DD Tatsuyuke at 11,000 yards
DD Lansdowne engages DD Amagiri at 11,000 yards
DD Wadsworth engages DD Arashio at 11,000 yards
DD Guest engages DD Michishio at 11,000 yards
DD Niizuki engages DD Guest at 11,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages BB Hyuga at 8,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages BB Yamato at 8,000 yards
CA Atago engages DD Craven at 8,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages CL Kuma at 8,000 yards
DD Yamanagiri engages DD Wadsworth at 8,000 yards
DD Satsukaze engages DD Sigsbee at 8,000 yards
DD Craven engages DD Yamanagiri at 8,000 yards
DD Bullard engages DD Arashio at 8,000 yards
DD Craven engages DD Tatsuyuke at 8,000 yards
DD Amagiri engages DD Wadsworth at 8,000 yards
DD Guest engages DD Arashio at 8,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Wadsworth at 8,000 yards
DD Niizuki engages DD Lang at 8,000 yards
Range increases to 10,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages BB Yamato at 10,000 yards
BB Yamato engages BB New Mexico at 10,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Craven at 10,000 yards
DD Lansdowne engages DD Yamanagiri at 10,000 yards
DD Wadsworth engages DD Arashio at 10,000 yards
DD Satsukaze engages DD Wadsworth at 10,000 yards
DD Niizuki engages DD Guest at 10,000 yards
DD Niizuki engages DD Bullard at 10,000 yards
DD Bullard engages DD Amagiri at 10,000 yards
DD Guest engages DD Arashio at 10,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Bullard at 10,000 yards
DD Lang engages DD Niizuki at 10,000 yards
Takayanagi, Gihachi orders Japanese TF to disengage
Range increases to 12,000 yards
BB New Mexico engages BB Hyuga at 12,000 yards
BB New Mexico sunk by BB Yamato at 12,000 yards
DD Suresushio engages DD Craven at 12,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Lansdowne at 12,000 yards
DD Satsukaze engages DD Wadsworth at 12,000 yards
DD Satsukaze engages DD Sigsbee at 12,000 yards
DD Yamanagiri engages DD Craven at 12,000 yards
DD Bullard engages DD Michishio at 12,000 yards
DD Sigsbee engages DD Tatsuyuke at 12,000 yards
DD Amagiri engages DD Bullard at 12,000 yards
DD Arashio engages DD Bullard at 12,000 yards
DD Craven engages DD Michishio at 12,000 yards
DD Sigsbee engages DD Niizuki at 12,000 yards
Range increases to 14,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Wadsworth at 14,000 yards
BB Yamato engages DD Wadsworth at 14,000 yards
CA Atago engages DD Lansdowne at 14,000 yards
CL Kuma engages DD Wadsworth at 14,000 yards
DD Niizuki engages DD Sigsbee at 14,000 yards
DD Satsukaze engages DD Guest at 14,000 yards
DD Bullard engages DD Arashio at 14,000 yards
DD Sigsbee engages DD Suresushio at 14,000 yards
DD Tatsuyuke engages DD Lansdowne at 14,000 yards
DD Amagiri engages DD Guest at 14,000 yards
DD Arashio engages DD Wadsworth at 14,000 yards
DD Sigsbee engages DD Michishio at 14,000 yards
Range increases to 19,000 yards
DD Michishio engages DD Lang at 19,000 yards
DD Tatsuyuke engages DD Craven at 19,000 yards
DD Arashio engages DD Lansdowne at 19,000 yards
CL Kuma engages DD Wadsworth at 19,000 yards
DD Satsukaze engages DD Guest at 19,000 yards
DD Bullard engages DD Tatsuyuke at 19,000 yards
DD Guest engages DD Tatsuyuke at 19,000 yards
DD Niizuki engages DD Sigsbee at 19,000 yards
Brown, Wilson orders Allied TF to disengage
Range increases to 22,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Wadsworth at 22,000 yards
BB Yamato engages DD Craven at 22,000 yards
BB Yamato engages DD Wadsworth at 22,000 yards
BB Yamato engages DD Bullard at 22,000 yards
Range increases to 28,000 yards
BB Hyuga engages DD Wadsworth at 28,000 yards
BB Yamato engages DD Wadsworth at 28,000 yards
CA Atago engages DD Wadsworth at 28,000 yards
BB Yamato engages DD Guest at 28,000 yards
Task forces break off...

Was New Mexico's fight in vain....Sorong's runways are not molested...and the first of many waves of attacks leaves....target Yamato! But, Japan is the master of LRCAP....our counter, P38's flying high drop down on the enemy fighters trying to protect the IJN ships. It is a bloody tough fight....

More waves of bombers appear....all types, low and high and in the middle....the enemy CAP is wearing thin but Allied escort fighters are diminishing too....then, it happens:
It is the 2nd wave of bombers...

Morning Air attack on TF, near Kofiau at 79,107

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 19 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 1
A6M5 Zero x 3
A6M5b Zero x 3
A6M5c Zero x 1
A6M8 Zero x 1
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 10

Allied aircraft
P-39D Airacobra x 10
OS2U-3 Kingfisher x 9
TBF-1 Avenger x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed
A6M5b Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
OS2U-3 Kingfisher: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged
TBF-1 Avenger: 4 destroyed, 7 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Hyuga, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CA Atago
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x TBF-1 Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22.4in Mk 13 Torp.
5 x OS2U-3 Kingfisher bombing from 1000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb

One torpedo won't sink the Yamato...it will take 10 or so....but can the one hit slow her down...make her vulnerable to PT boats and subs and even more planes! Definitely.

Morning Air attack on TF, near Kofiau at 79,107

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 39 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5c Zero x 1
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 3

Allied aircraft
B-25D1 Mitchell x 6
OS2U-3 Kingfisher x 1
TBF-1 Avenger x 12

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-25D1 Mitchell: 4 damaged
B-25D1 Mitchell: 1 destroyed by flak
TBF-1 Avenger: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Hyuga, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
BB Yamato, heavy fires
DD Amagiri, heavy fires
DD Satsukaze
CL Kuma

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x TBF-1 Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22.4in Mk 13 Torp.
1 x OS2U-3 Kingfisher bombing from 1000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
6 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing and strafing from low level
Naval Attack: 6 x 500 lb SAP Bomb

At nearby Ambon, the IJ fighter base...Hellcats and Spitfires sweep, while some Heavy Bombers go in....the busy and crowded runway is caught unprotected and the 500#ers wreck havoc among the fighters on the ground!

Morning Air attack on Ambon , at 76,109

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 59 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 20 minutes

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5b Zero: 5 destroyed on ground
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 3 destroyed on ground
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 5 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 1 damaged

Airbase hits 7
Runway hits 15

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

Then, heavy bombers hit the port at Babeldoab....to keep the IJ honest, this raid was part of a plan with the Benedict Arnold task force...

Morning Air attack on Babeldaob , at 90,97

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 25 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 8
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 1
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 8

Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 11

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 destroyed, 10 damaged

Japanese Ships
xAK Yasukawa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAK Shinanogawa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Port hits 2
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 9000 feet
Port Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb