Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: The SNAFU

Elmo

I have been lurking in the WITE forum for sometime now and your wonderful AAR has convinced me to register. For me and obviously many others, this game is one of the most exciting projects in years. An Eastern Front game at this scale and of this quality is long overdue.

Thank you for investing so much of your time working on the game and sharing your test drive with all of us.

Welcome to the forum and Matrix Games. I hope your stay will be long and rewarding.
PS pass the word around about the games here. Especially this one and the Panther Games series which is also a must buy...

Seeing the OOB totals - scary to think that the Russians still have almost 5 million soldiers available, even given the losses taken to date.

Today is going to be a busy day for me so it's not clear when I'll be able to post a turn.

So here are two morning screen shots for your perusal.  The first is the Air Unit List from the Commanders Reports sorted on Morale (between EXP and MAX).  Note that we have a few low morale units.  What I'm going to do is send the worst of them back to the Strategic National Reserve for some R&R and training to boost their morale.



The second shot is the current list of air units in the Strategic National Reserve sorted by Ready aircraft.  I'm not going into all the deatils of how this works but air units will automatically be sent to airbases that need them (based on the commitment level that you can set) or you can assign them manually.  So I will test this to see if it works properly and send them manually (and bug report it) if it does not.

Thanks for the latest screenshots elmo. These add even more depth to the game.

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Seeing the OOB totals - scary to think that the Russians still have almost 5 million soldiers available, even given the losses taken to date.

...but the Axis have more (over 5 million in total) plus all the advantages of C&C, organisation etc. They also have just over 5000 AFVs - almost 1:1 (inc the Italians tankettes - but the Soviets have lots of small stuff too), and a 1:1.5 disadvantage in guns. Get to it, Elmo [;)]!!!

What I am surprised at is the disparity in aircraft, a 1:1.67 ratio - and this after the devastation caused to the Soviets in the first air raids. I had thought the Germans were way ahead in aircraft (and in air superiority) until late '42. Any word from you airheads on the histroical position? Elmo, is this translating into lost air battles, casualties etc or are the number of aircraft less relevant thus far than quality, experience etc?

I continue to be completely gripped by this AAR
Stuart

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Seeing the OOB totals - scary to think that the Russians still have almost 5 million soldiers available, even given the losses taken to date.

Actually it's worse than it looks. Here are some things to bear in mind:

1) Axis forces in general and Germans in particular have more support in their units than do Soviet forces. In the long-run that's a benefit since support makes everything else work better but in the short run it means that there are fewer men with guns on the Axis side than the Soviet side or put another way, there are a lot more Russian units out there than Axis units.

2) The AFV totals are exactly that, AFVs which on the Axis side includes tank destroyers, armed halftracks and armored cars. On top of that the Italian total includes a lot of AFVs that aren't even on the Eastern front but garrisoning Yugoslavia. By contrast, although the Soviets also have armored cars in their total, most of their AFVs are tanks including by now lots of T-34s and KV-1s.

3) For all intents and purposes the Finnish totals can be ignored. Unless elmo can take Leningrad (and that's looking questionable) the Finns are now of almost no benefit, perhaps tying down at most a Russian force 10% their size.

When you consider the above points you have to think elmo's situation is at least worrisome if not as you say down right scary.

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger


[...Elmo, is this translating into lost air battles, casualties etc or are the number of aircraft less relevant thus far than quality, experience etc?

I continue to be completely gripped by this AAR
Stuart

Well so far we have killed 5 aircraft for every one lost although a lot of those came on turn 1. We are usually winning the air battles too. The problem is the Soviets are out producing their losses and it will only get worse as the war drags on.

ORIGINAL: jaw

3) For all intents and purposes the Finnish totals can be ignored. Unless elmo can take Leningrad (and that's looking questionable) the Finns are now of almost no benefit, perhaps tying down at most a Russian force 10% their size.

That doesn't sound right. Quickly glancing through my sources, there were 6 Soviet divisions against 5 Finnish divisions at Karelian Isthmus on 9th of September 1941, when the Finns dug in there, and 4 Soviet divisions and 1 brigade against 4 Finnish and 1 German divisions at Syväri on October-January. The game doesn't cover other Finnish fronts.

It is obviously a serious game design issue, if the Soviets can use only 10% of the size of the Finnish forces to tie them down...

ORIGINAL: elmo3

In the second shot you can see the Rumanians and Italians were pushed back near Kirovograd.  Not a crisis and in fact it may give us a chance for a pocket, but it's a potent of things to come regarding the Axis allies.

OK - not a crisis, but maybe a surprise. These attacks knocked back back not just single Rumaninian or Italian units, but stacks, one of which (the most Northerly) included a German inf. division. Another included driving back back one unit, then the stack that was behind this. The Russian units don't seem that numerous, and the minor axis stacks aren't that weak, are they? Havve you seen the combat reports? Do they shed any light on this outcome - my guess is armour attacking with only weak AT defence?

S

ORIGINAL: Keke


[That doesn't sound right. Quickly glancing through my sources, there were 6 Soviet divisions against 5 Finnish divisions at Karelian Isthmus on 9th of September 1941, when the Finns dug in there, and 4 Soviet divisions and 1 brigade against 4 Finnish and 1 German divisions at Syväri on October-January. The game doesn't cover other Finnish fronts.

It is obviously a serious game design issue, if the Soviets can use only 10% of the size of the Finnish forces to tie them down...

The Finnish No Attack line allows the Russian to oppose the Finns with a minimum of force. I don't know if it is possible to solve this problem without resorting to something equally onerous but I can refer it to Gary.

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger



OK - not a crisis, but maybe a surprise. These attacks knocked back back not just single Rumaninian or Italian units, but stacks, one of which (the most Northerly) included a German inf. division. Another included driving back back one unit, then the stack that was behind this. The Russian units don't seem that numerous, and the minor axis stacks aren't that weak, are they? Havve you seen the combat reports? Do they shed any light on this outcome - my guess is armour attacking with only weak AT defence?

S

There is a bug with the reporting of those attacks that may have affected the outcome. Will try to reproduce it to get it fixed.

ORIGINAL: jaw

ORIGINAL: Keke


[That doesn't sound right. Quickly glancing through my sources, there were 6 Soviet divisions against 5 Finnish divisions at Karelian Isthmus on 9th of September 1941, when the Finns dug in there, and 4 Soviet divisions and 1 brigade against 4 Finnish and 1 German divisions at Syväri on October-January. The game doesn't cover other Finnish fronts.

It is obviously a serious game design issue, if the Soviets can use only 10% of the size of the Finnish forces to tie them down...

The Finnish No Attack line allows the Russian to oppose the Finns with a minimum of force. I don't know if it is possible to solve this problem without resorting to something equally onerous but I can refer it to Gary.

Yes, something should be done about it. Historically, for example, the Soviets reinforced themselves at Syväri (Svir) and launched a minor offensive on April 1942. Then there were 6 Soviet divisions and 4 Marine Brigades against 4 Finnish and one German division.

Edit: I may come up with an idea later...[;)]

ORIGINAL: Keke

ORIGINAL: jaw

3) For all intents and purposes the Finnish totals can be ignored. Unless elmo can take Leningrad (and that's looking questionable) the Finns are now of almost no benefit, perhaps tying down at most a Russian force 10% their size.

That doesn't sound right. Quickly glancing through my sources, there were 6 Soviet divisions against 5 Finnish divisions at Karelian Isthmus on 9th of September 1941, when the Finns dug in there, and 4 Soviet divisions and 1 brigade against 4 Finnish and 1 German divisions at Syväri on October-January. The game doesn't cover other Finnish fronts.

It is obviously a serious game design issue, if the Soviets can use only 10% of the size of the Finnish forces to tie them down...

It has been said a number of times that this thread should be related to Elmo's excellent AAR only. However, yet again this issue about the Finnish front pops up. I repeat myself: at this point the battle of Leningrad does not seem to get proper modelling at all because Finnish front can be manned with some odd 1-1 Soviet units. Historically, as Keke pointed out, it tied-up significant number of Soviet divisions and other units. Currently if this issue won't be addressed, it would be better to exclude the Finnish front and have appropriate Soviet divisions excluded as well.

ORIGINAL: B455

ORIGINAL: Keke

ORIGINAL: jaw

3) For all intents and purposes the Finnish totals can be ignored. Unless elmo can take Leningrad (and that's looking questionable) the Finns are now of almost no benefit, perhaps tying down at most a Russian force 10% their size.

That doesn't sound right. Quickly glancing through my sources, there were 6 Soviet divisions against 5 Finnish divisions at Karelian Isthmus on 9th of September 1941, when the Finns dug in there, and 4 Soviet divisions and 1 brigade against 4 Finnish and 1 German divisions at Syväri on October-January. The game doesn't cover other Finnish fronts.

It is obviously a serious game design issue, if the Soviets can use only 10% of the size of the Finnish forces to tie them down...

It has been said a number of times that this thread should be related to Elmo's excellent AAR only. However, yet again this issue about the Finnish front pops up. I repeat myself: at this point the battle of Leningrad does not seem to get proper modelling at all because Finnish front can be manned with some odd 1-1 Soviet units. Historically, as Keke pointed out, it tied-up significant number of Soviet divisions and other units. Currently if this issue won't be addressed, it would be better to exclude the Finnish front and have appropriate Soviet divisions excluded as well.

Maybe a Soviet Garrison requirement?

Are you guys sure losses vis a vis production are getting modeled correctly. Comparing against the earlier summer OOB posted, Germany now have more troops and Tanks (@700 more) slightly less guns. The Roumanians seem to have found 100,000 more men 700 more guns and maintained their tank strength. The Russians also look odd. Should both sides not be like Glantz's boxers about now?

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

Are you guys sure losses vis a vis production are getting modeled correctly. Comparing against the earlier summer OOB posted, Germany now have more troops and Tanks (@700 more) slightly less guns. The Roumanians seem to have found 100,000 more men 700 more guns and maintained their tank strength. The Russians also look odd. Should both sides not be like Glantz's boxers about now?

We're still in alpha so I wouldn't bet my paycheck on the accuracy of the numbers but with respect to the Germans they did continue to receive reinforcements throughout the summer and into the Fall including the 40th Panzer corps (2nd & 5th Panzer divisions) so they might not be off as much as you think. The Rumanians also receive reinforcements although I can't say if they amount to 100,000 men and 700 guns. As for the Russians all I can say is that they have suffered far fewer casualties in elmo's game than historic. Hard to say how much that is throwing everything off.

Questions about the Lennigrad assault:
 
[ol][*]If the rail line into Lennigrad is cut, can the units in Lennigrad be supplied by water through Lake Ladoga before it freezes? I read the Soviets used small boats to supply the city before the lake froze but I do not know how effective it was.
[*]Will the need to supply civilians and evacuate them from the city reduce the amount of supplies received by the combat units in the city?[/ol]
Thank you.

ORIGINAL: zbig

Questions about the Lennigrad assault:

[ol][*]If the rail line into Lennigrad is cut, can the units in Lennigrad be supplied by water through Lake Ladoga before it freezes? I read the Soviets used small boats to supply the city before the lake froze but I do not know how effective it was.
[*]Will the need to supply civilians and evacuate them from the city reduce the amount of supplies received by the combat units in the city?[/ol]
Thank you.

1. Yup.
2. No, the two are not related AFAIK.

We're still in alpha so I wouldn't bet my paycheck on the accuracy of the numbers but with respect to the Germans they did continue to receive reinforcements throughout the summer and into the Fall including the 40th Panzer corps (2nd & 5th Panzer divisions) so they might not be off as much as you think. The Rumanians also receive reinforcements although I can't say if they amount to 100,000 men and 700 guns. As for the Russians all I can say is that they have suffered far fewer casualties in elmo's game than historic. Hard to say how much that is throwing everything off.

Understand its Alpha just hoping it will get checked out.[:)] I cant imagine even with the most spectacular success Germany actually increasing in strength during the 41 campaign given that Halder noted a 200,000 man shortfall in September historically. I also cant imagine in the same scenario the release of 2nd and 5th Pz in September bringing the total number of AFV's to a pre Barbarossa total let alone 700 more.

10/23/41 (turn 19)  It's Mud in the two northern zones this week so movement is problematic and we did not accomplish a lot.  Up north we moved our troops (6 divisions from 4th Pz Grp) into position to assault Leningrad next turn and bombed the defenders with minimal results this turn.  My best guess is it will take at least two weeks to dislodge the defenders.  It will be interesting to see if the AI is good enough to replace any worn out defenders with fresh troops.  Will post the rest of this turn later today.