Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: MrKane

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Engines are getting critical. 2 months left of the HA 45 engine, only produced 4 yesterday. Tony, Judy and Myojo engines are out...can only afford to make Tonies every day, and Judies every other day. Jack production still climbing and I converted the first J2M3 squadron today -- but it is no wonder plane.

Actually, J2M3 is wonder fighter for me. I am keeping combat patrol at altitude 10-20K. With radar it allows to airborne part climb above incoming strike and get 2nd and 3rd wave join fight fast and create numbers superiority. N1K2-J is better dog-fighter but need more time to get airborne and join combat.

Thankyou for that ray of sunshine![:)]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Taking Hokkaido, puts all of the scen1 engine factories within reach and I would recommend AFBs to
pursue that strategy if they go Hokkaido, depending upon game circumstances.

I think just picking one main component of the supply chain breeds success ... I might propose for example burning down cities burns up supply and no supply no drawing planes from the pool.
I am not a JFB so I don't know the optimum strategy given the probably of getting a factory hit vs. manpower/fires eating away supplies and damaging LI/(HI)

But I am sure spreading out the attacks to hit airplane factories one raid and then engines on another .. then manpower given that the IJ in the game have lots of aircraft and pilots is a sure strategy for disaster.
The IJ can eventually exhaust the Allies bomber pools (as well as fighters)

I hope you are right. [:)] Jumping around sure is painful though, and I never manage to guess right with a couple of wandering sentai looking to trap him.

I am completely agree with Crackaces about Japan ability to exhaust the Allies a/c pools, however I have feeling that you little oversleep "year 1943" and it will be not easy to achieve this target

Jumping around is good tactic when you are fighting above pacific islands, however when you cities are burning it will be better to get superior numbers. Do not try hide your HI for dark hour, it is dark hour. Just rebuild your engines fact in place well protected like Tokyo/Osaka or Harbin.

April 6th, 1944

No night bombing.

I lose 25 Georges for 16 Spitfires and Jugs. No bombing of Honshu.

On the clear hex of death, one NW of Bangkok, the Allies bomb, bomb, and bomb some more. The 14th Division gets the unenviable task of rear guard and initial battle reports are less than heartening. Over 470 combat squads destroyed.

Ouch.

But everyone else is back in Bangkok, the Allies didn't pursue across the river, and now we shall see where the Allies are off to next in this part of the world.

I wouldn't dismiss so easily the value of defending Bangkok to the death.
 
There are only two approaches into Bangkok.
 
1. Indirectly via Ayuthia which entails a preliminary river crossing into Ayuthia, or
 
2.  A direct river crossing into Bangkok.
 
The Ayuthia approach is the safer albeit slightly slower approach.  It is the approach the Allies should take and if they do, Japanese resistance in Bangkok itself will be much shorter.  The direct approach superficially might seem to be better but it isn't and is in fact Japan's best chance to hold the enemy for quite some time away from the Vinh line.
 
The deficiencies with the direct river crossing are as follows.
 
1.  A mandatory shock attack ensues.
2.  The Bangkok hex is a Heavy Urban terrain hex which is a 4x defence modifier, the absolute best possible
3.  The evidence to date is that the Allied army closest to Bangkok is worn out and in need of R&R
4.  A large component of the adjacent Allied army is provided by the Chinese 6th Corps.  Do not be fooled by its 660 AV.  It's firepower is quite low and is not an asset in a river crossing.
 
This means that prompt direct crossing commits a worn out army to a shock attack where its firepower will be quartered (compared to what it can bring to bear in the clear terrain hex of death against the worn out 14th div rear guard plus the attacker will get additional disruption just from the act of crossing the river.  Without knowing just how fresh the Japanese defenders in Bangkok are, the Allies have to factor in the high potential of a disastrous river crossing which may be successfully counterattacked.
 
If the Allies wait to recover before the direct crossing, so do you and because of the terrain benefit and auto disruption gained from the river crossing, your recovery is effectively at a faster rate.
 
But even a non disastrous Allied river crossing is very dangerous for the Allies whilst you retain an uninvested Ayuthia for you can quickly move a single unit due west and then cross the river into Bangkok trapping the Allied army in Bangkok.  There is no limit to the number of times you can do this trap door closing.  To guard against this part of the Allied army would need to not cross into Bangkok and this in turn reduces the weight of the enemy inside Bangkok itself.  All the time you can railroad fresh units into Bangkok.
 
Alfred

Thank you for the insights Alfred.

In my first game against NJP I took Ayuthia without opposition because my opponent saw my move too late. This is disastrous for the Japanese because the rail lines allow movement into the interior of the continent without actually taking Bangkok.

It eliminated any usefulness for the defense of the city.

I cannot imagine making Bangkok a target when I have to river cross anyway and I can choose between Heavy Urban and open terrain.

Make sure you do not leave this door open in any way.

Here is the remnants of the 14th ID. Not bad, about 200 infantry squads lost. Long time readers will remember an Infantry Division on Sumatra that was destroyed down to 4 total devices after the first two turns of my takeover.

I did lose a AA unit, they will respawn at Tokyo in 20-30 days at the whopping cost of 1 pp; plus supply and HI and Manpower costs to rebuild.

The troops retreated to Ayuthia.

Here is the storied 4th Division. Remember the division knocked down to 4 devices on turn 2 of my takeover.

This is their war.

On my first turn I took over, watching the replay, they attacked and suffered almost 100% disablements. On the second day, the Allies attacked knocking it down to 4 devices. The first turn wasn't very good for Japan with Tarawa falling too...plus being destroyed in the air.

They replaced the losses in about a month, and then did blockade duty against the Allies on Sumatra, despite the fact they had a 20 or so morale. From there, they went and did well defeating the Australians at Broome (very touch and go), and also some bitter grinding battles in the jungle rough terrain of the Bangkok/Moulmein road where they were the tip of the Japanese defense.

They were briefly surrounded, but a solid drive by the 4th Tank Regiment rescued them and their supporting 6 artillery units.

Now they are safely tucked away at Bangkok, a little worse for the wear from their retreat down the Bangkok/Moulmein road.

Now, they once again have to look strong, to delay an attack at Bangkok.




Despite the mauling in the air, the long retreat from Moulmein, these troops are in excellent spirits. Go figure.

Thailand, the big picture.

Lots of decisions to make here.

Hello...several Allied task forces in the area, and the straits are full of subs even though I have no ASW flying out of Singers today, well daytime.

I lost another 2 vp tanker there, and in return damaged a Yank sub.

Sumatra really has been available for the taking since late November of 1943.

ORIGINAL: MrKane
Jumping around is good tactic when you are fighting above pacific islands, however when you cities are burning it will be better to get superior numbers. Do not try hide your HI for dark hour, it is dark hour. Just rebuild your engines fact in place well protected like Tokyo/Osaka or Harbin.

I didn't explain myself well; and I agree with you. However, I have been bouncing around 2 squadrons and thru that practice the Allies aren't bombing every base in eastern Honshu. I still have a fair amount of production flowing from there.

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

Thank you for the insights Alfred.

In my first game against NJP I took Ayuthia without opposition because my opponent saw my move too late. This is disastrous for the Japanese because the rail lines allow movement into the interior of the continent without actually taking Bangkok.

It eliminated any usefulness for the defense of the city.

I cannot imagine making Bangkok a target when I have to river cross anyway and I can choose between Heavy Urban and open terrain.

Make sure you do not leave this door open in any way.

I vividly remember your taking Ayuthia![&o] I have always made sure to keep it well garrisoned, especially after the Allies dropped the Chindits in Burma way back in 42-43.

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I wouldn't dismiss so easily the value of defending Bangkok to the death.

There are only two approaches into Bangkok.

1. Indirectly via Ayuthia which entails a preliminary river crossing into Ayuthia, or

2.  A direct river crossing into Bangkok.

The Ayuthia approach is the safer albeit slightly slower approach.  It is the approach the Allies should take and if they do, Japanese resistance in Bangkok itself will be much shorter.  The direct approach superficially might seem to be better but it isn't and is in fact Japan's best chance to hold the enemy for quite some time away from the Vinh line.

The deficiencies with the direct river crossing are as follows.

1.  A mandatory shock attack ensues.
2.  The Bangkok hex is a Heavy Urban terrain hex which is a 4x defence modifier, the absolute best possible
3.  The evidence to date is that the Allied army closest to Bangkok is worn out and in need of R&R
4.  A large component of the adjacent Allied army is provided by the Chinese 6th Corps.  Do not be fooled by its 660 AV.  It's firepower is quite low and is not an asset in a river crossing.

This means that prompt direct crossing commits a worn out army to a shock attack where its firepower will be quartered (compared to what it can bring to bear in the clear terrain hex of death against the worn out 14th div rear guard plus the attacker will get additional disruption just from the act of crossing the river.  Without knowing just how fresh the Japanese defenders in Bangkok are, the Allies have to factor in the high potential of a disastrous river crossing which may be successfully counterattacked.

If the Allies wait to recover before the direct crossing, so do you and because of the terrain benefit and auto disruption gained from the river crossing, your recovery is effectively at a faster rate.

But even a non disastrous Allied river crossing is very dangerous for the Allies whilst you retain an uninvested Ayuthia for you can quickly move a single unit due west and then cross the river into Bangkok trapping the Allied army in Bangkok.  There is no limit to the number of times you can do this trap door closing.  To guard against this part of the Allied army would need to not cross into Bangkok and this in turn reduces the weight of the enemy inside Bangkok itself.  All the time you can railroad fresh units into Bangkok.

Alfred

While I pretty much agree, I must point out that...

Alas! Bangkok is in fact a Light Urban hex, despite the "Heavy Urban" coloring it has on the map. At least it is Light Urban if you are running stock. Still better than clear, but nowhere near as good defensively as Heavy...

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I wouldn't dismiss so easily the value of defending Bangkok to the death.

There are only two approaches into Bangkok.

1. Indirectly via Ayuthia which entails a preliminary river crossing into Ayuthia, or

2.  A direct river crossing into Bangkok.

The Ayuthia approach is the safer albeit slightly slower approach.  It is the approach the Allies should take and if they do, Japanese resistance in Bangkok itself will be much shorter.  The direct approach superficially might seem to be better but it isn't and is in fact Japan's best chance to hold the enemy for quite some time away from the Vinh line.

The deficiencies with the direct river crossing are as follows.

1.  A mandatory shock attack ensues.
2.  The Bangkok hex is a Heavy Urban terrain hex which is a 4x defence modifier, the absolute best possible
3.  The evidence to date is that the Allied army closest to Bangkok is worn out and in need of R&R
4.  A large component of the adjacent Allied army is provided by the Chinese 6th Corps.  Do not be fooled by its 660 AV.  It's firepower is quite low and is not an asset in a river crossing.

This means that prompt direct crossing commits a worn out army to a shock attack where its firepower will be quartered (compared to what it can bring to bear in the clear terrain hex of death against the worn out 14th div rear guard plus the attacker will get additional disruption just from the act of crossing the river.  Without knowing just how fresh the Japanese defenders in Bangkok are, the Allies have to factor in the high potential of a disastrous river crossing which may be successfully counterattacked.

If the Allies wait to recover before the direct crossing, so do you and because of the terrain benefit and auto disruption gained from the river crossing, your recovery is effectively at a faster rate.

But even a non disastrous Allied river crossing is very dangerous for the Allies whilst you retain an uninvested Ayuthia for you can quickly move a single unit due west and then cross the river into Bangkok trapping the Allied army in Bangkok.  There is no limit to the number of times you can do this trap door closing.  To guard against this part of the Allied army would need to not cross into Bangkok and this in turn reduces the weight of the enemy inside Bangkok itself.  All the time you can railroad fresh units into Bangkok.

Alfred

Thanks, great advice.[&o][&o]

Now the caveats for this particular case. I thought Bangkok is urban light? My map says UL.

I never planned on holding Ayuthia or Bangkok, just to make them seem tough to get the Allies to go offroad perhaps buying me time. Most of the Allied armor is still up around Pisanuloke. I never really built the forts.[X(]

I can't see how to retreat as the Allied armor will chase me down and kill everything (I think).

I have to admit, that Pax Mondo really influenced my thinking here, plus reading many AARs where once the Allies are into the plains it doesn't go well for Japan (ObvertvsJoc; Crackaces; a current AAR; WargamervsNJP and others). I want to hold at the Vinh Line, the terrain is good, the retreat paths are good.

I am not sure I could do both, defend Bangkok and also prepare the Vinh line.

I suspect the Allies will start a heavy bombing campaign of Ayuthia, but they can cross the river into the open and from there go off road and surround Bangkok & Ayuthia (of course this takes time). They can also shock into Ayuthia after very heavy bombing.

I am going to stick with my plan and develop the Vinh line and try to show a good defense buying whatever time I can.

Perhaps, if I had forts 5 I could hold longer here. But it is too late for me in this game (in more ways than one![:D])

This is now several days into not looking at tracker.

I am enjoying using the screens in the stock game tracking production. Kind of fun.[:)] Wish there was commas.[:D]

I do miss the turn to turn tracking that Tracker gives you. I will probably only load up a turn every two weeks or so to check.

A large component of the adjacent Allied army is provided by the Chinese 6th Corps.
Do not be fooled by its 660 AV. It's firepower is quite low and is not an asset in a river crossing.

I thought the calculation for subsequent river shock attacks was based on AV .. that is if the AV is less than 1/2 of the stuff in the hex no shock attack for oncoming secondary river crossers?

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

A large component of the adjacent Allied army is provided by the Chinese 6th Corps.
Do not be fooled by its 660 AV. It's firepower is quite low and is not an asset in a river crossing.

I thought the calculation for subsequent river shock attacks was based on AV .. that is if the AV is less than 1/2 of the stuff in the hex no shock attack for oncoming secondary river crossers?

I think you are confusing Alfred's premise...i.e. Chinese division makeup and its effectiveness in making a forced river crossing.

I have seen huge Chinese armies in other AARs get absolutely mauled in offensive river crossings. It is the TOE.

The secondary river crossing (from the same hexside) depends on whether a bridgehead was established in the first crossing. It is very confusing topic itself, but has nothing to do with Alfred's original post.

PS: That is my understanding.[:)]

Okay, the turn is away...and we will see what the Allies do. I feel that I have really failed here, as I cannot force the Allies to react to me.

I had great suggestions on how to do that, but unfortunately, I was never forward looking long enough to be in a position to accomplish it.

The more I think about Alfred's post, the more I see all the benefits associated with it. Sigh. Something to bear in mind for future games.

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

A large component of the adjacent Allied army is provided by the Chinese 6th Corps.
Do not be fooled by its 660 AV. It's firepower is quite low and is not an asset in a river crossing.

I thought the calculation for subsequent river shock attacks was based on AV .. that is if the AV is less than 1/2 of the stuff in the hex no shock attack for oncoming secondary river crossers?

I think you are confusing Alfred's premise...i.e. Chinese division makeup and its effectiveness in making a forced river crossing.

I have seen huge Chinese armies in other AARs get absolutely mauled in offensive river crossings. It is the TOE.

The secondary river crossing (from the same hexside) depends on whether a bridgehead was established in the first crossing. It is very confusing topic itself, but has nothing to do with Alfred's original post.

PS: That is my understanding.[:)]

My thought is ....have Chinese cross first take shock attack .. hopefully survive .. then through the same hexside more forces cross .. and I think they do not have to shock attack accumulating forces in the target hex ...and the calculations are all AV not firepower

But (given no home rules) bombing an open hex assuredly causes disruption and that reduces the firepower/AV in the hex. In my first game, the IJ gave away the open hex terrain because the defenders could not stand the pounding ..
IN my second crossing .. so many squads were disrupted that my equally disrupted units made a weak attack vs a weak defense ... once recovered the slaughter began ..

One thing not mentioned .. Bangkok is easily isolated by rail so the IJ have to bring in supplies by shipping ... typically not a good idea once the slaughter begins ...so a well supplied Allied force vs starving LYB ..if a lot of LYB's are trapped it becomes the "Singapore II" situation .. lots of units consuming little supply ...

Well, you can see with the arrival of all the troops from the hex of death, supply has dropped to a !

So I am unprepared to take advantage of castle Bangkok. Plus the forts are substandard. Black market no doubt. Or greed. Maybe incompetence.[:D]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Well, you can see with the arrival of all the troops from the hex of death, supply has dropped to a !

So I am unprepared to take advantage of castle Bangkok. Plus the forts are substandard. Black market no doubt. Or greed. Maybe incompetence.[:D]

Nah, this is clearly a case of Other Objectives Prioritized Supremely. Also knows as OOPS [:D]. in order to maximize the war effort results, obviously.

What kind of troops will you be able to deploy to defend the Vinh line?