MWiF Map Review - America

[Astarix]

M = Mountain.  In a previous post I mentioned that these "hills" are not very high, but they are very rugged granite and basaltic formations.  The highest peaks in the Lake Superior Highlands may only be around 2500 feet above sea level with average elevations are in the 1400-1800 feet above sea level, but I can tell you from driving and hiking this area, that its every bit as nasty as any mountains you have been in, for all its lack of altitude.  I know that forest is used to denote rough terrain, but some of these areas really do derserve the designation of mountain. 
 
A little more info on the Iron Mines in Minnesota.  There are actually, or were in the time frame of WWII, 3 major Iron Ranges.  From South to North, they were the Cuyuna, centered just North of the Brainerd and Mill Lacs Lake area in the towns of Crosby and Ironton.  The Mesabi Range, which runs generally NE, for 110 miles, from the towns of Cohasset and Grand Rapids, in the Southwest portion, through Hibbing, Chisholm, and Virgina and finally ending at Babbit in the Northeast.  The final range is the Vermillion Range, which runs generally NE for about 30 miles starting at the southern shore of Lake Vermillion and including the towns of Tower, Soudan, Ely and Winton.  The Railroad I drew in runs from the eastern most sections of the Mesabi and Vermillion ranges down to the Harbors of Beaver Bay and Taconite Harbor.  There is also a line that runs from Beaver Bay down to Duluth. 
 
Looking at the Map again, I realize there was room to drawn in the Minnesota and I will scribble that in after I get home from work tomorrow.  Still getting used to the scale.  Also, I spelled Rainy Lake, Rainey in a previous post, the correct spelling is Rainy.
 
As far as the Mackinac Straits, I remember the movement and supply rules regarding straits, but was trying to provide as accurate a picture/depiction of the region as I could.  The rail line going across the strait sort of surprised me, as physically, it doesn't exist. 
 
Jason

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Astarix
As you can see, my freehand Paint skills are minimal at best. At any rate, I added in a rail line along which Iron Ore is and was transported.

Whatever the skill, the result is that everyone here can now comment on those proposals as this is very easy to see which hexes you propose to change to Forest (W), Swamp (S) and Montains (M) and the river you propose as well as the railways.

Personaly I'm surprised that you put Forest instead of Swam south & SE of the Lake of the Woods, because there seems to ba a lot of real swamps here on my 40s maps.

About the forest added all around, this seems fair because my maps also show lots of forests here.

Also, I was unable to add the Minnesota River in Southern Minnesota as the last couple of hex rows were cropped off.

I'll post another shot that have this area.

[Norman42]

ORIGINAL: Astarix

As you can see, my freehand Paint skills are minimal at best. At any rate, I added in a rail line along which Iron Ore is and was transported.

About the Mackinac crossing, there was no crossing of the Mackinac straits until they opened the Highway bridge in 1962. The winds in the straits can hit 100miles per hour. There may have been rail lines into the hexes on either side of the straits, but actually building a trestle over 9 miles long in those straits would have been an engineering nightmare. The Interstate 75 bridge that exists there now, took 4 years to construct, and is one of the longest suspension bridges on the planet. There are ports on the southern side of the Upper Peninisula that are connected by rail, which I believe, represents the rail line you are talking about. On the Lower Peninsula rail lines run along both shores of the Peninsula, but there was no possible way that a rail trestle could have crossed the straits and still allowed Shipping traffic through the straits. The rest of the rail lines in this area are accurate.

Also, I was unable to add the Minnesota River in Southern Minnesota as the last couple of hex rows were cropped off.

A few comments from someone who lived in Fort William (aka Thunder Bay):

The 3 M hexes:
- the southern one (Mt McKay to Mount Josephine range) - Yes, very rugged and steep.
- NE of Isle Royal (Sibley Peninsula) - Yes, extremely steep, the famed Sleeping Giant mountain is here.
- northern one (Red Rock/Nipigon region) Again yes, very rugged and steep cliffs.

The W hexes in Minnesota :
- All look fine, its a very woody area, many lakes. Forest represents it well.

The 4 S hexes along border :
- the 2 western ones - Yes, as I mentioned above its festooned with bogs and lakes.
- the south eastern one (US side) - Grand Marais area, I'd maybe leave it forest
- the north eastern one (next to Fort William) - Leave Forest. This is more hill/woodsy.

The Pigeon River :
- the river that forms the border in this region. It does swoop down on a south east angle as it reaches Lake Superior, but, so does the border. Since the border doesnt show that slight bend, I'd move the river as shown to follow the border.

.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Norman42
The 4 S hexes along border :
- the 2 western ones - Yes, as I mentioned above its festooned with bogs and lakes.
- the south eastern one (US side) - Grand Marais area, I'd maybe leave it forest
- the north eastern one (next to Fort William) - Leave Forest. This is more hill/woodsy.

And what about the 2 hexes of Swamp that Jason advises to change as Forest ? The WiF FE USA map as Swamps here, and the map of the USA I have too.

[Norman42]

I would leave the northern one as swamp. The southern one...could go either way, I'd probably lean to forest for that one.

[Froonp]

So, it would look like this. Would this be OK ?

[Froonp]

Here is this place in the world, after Norman & Jason input. Rivers & Lakes cannot be changed easily, so if they are done, this will be in the future.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: sajbalk
I will state for the record that the map of Iowa looks just fine.

Looks like perfect tank country.

[Norman42]

So, it would look like this. Would this be OK ?

Looks great. Much more accurate.

[Astarix]

As far as the map you posted, it looks like they didn't really know what to do with the area south of the Lake of the Woods.  It isn't actually and wasn't nearly as wet as that map would have one believe.  There is a lot of peat bog in the area, however, and it appears that they are using swamp to dipict this fact.  So changing the southern hex and leaving the 2 closer to the lake as swamp is a good representation.

The only other thing you might consider is moving Fort William (Thunder Bay) closer to the shore in the Northeastern part of the Hex to better represent its true location.  It is, and was, the port through which the rp hex to its west was shipped through.

Another piece of random trivia.  Minnesota is called the Land of 10,000 lakes, but there are actually in excess of 15,000 lakes with a surface area of at least 100 acres, many of them are much larger.  The vast majority of them are in the Northern half of the state, although there are approximately 600 lakes just within the Twin Cities Metro region.  The state is tremendously rich in wetlands and forested areas.

Excellent job, Patrice.  Looks much better, as Norman said.

Jason

Edit: The mountain hex in Minnesota is called the Sawtooth Range if you are interested in another place name. I am not sure what those hills are called north of the border.

[Norman42]

The only other thing you might consider is moving Fort William (Thunder Bay) closer to the shore in the Northeastern part of the Hex to better represent its true location.

Yes.

Fort William/Port Arthur (now known collectively as Thunder Bay) is indeed a port city and should be on the coast of Lake Superior for accuracy.

[marcuswatney]

Going back to Post 377, I think Dominica needs to be identified as CW, as it lies between two French possessions.
 
Also, who owns the islands between US Virgin and French Antilles (1 hex E and 1 hex NE of St Thomas)?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Norman42

The only other thing you might consider is moving Fort William (Thunder Bay) closer to the shore in the Northeastern part of the Hex to better represent its true location.

Yes.

Fort William/Port Arthur (now known collectively as Thunder Bay) is indeed a port city and should be on the coast of Lake Superior for accuracy.

Ports on lakes aren't part of the WIF design. Essentially, ships can not operate in lakes. This undoubtedly reflects on the original game design where there are few lakes in Europe that warrant taking up an entire hex, much less several connected hexes like the Great Lakes do.

I don't see myself changing the rules about this.

As another weirdness of this treatment of lakes in the rules, they freeze over in winter such that land units can cross them as if they were clear hexes. I don't see that actually happening with the Great Lakes, though my experience there is marginal. The image of an armor column crossing Lake Superior just seems wrong to me.

[Taxman66]

In MWiF 2 it should be possible to designate which lakes freeze and which don't.

[Astarix]

Steve,

I think, what Norman and I were commenting about is that the location of Thunder Bay looks really strange that far south and inland the way it is now. Even though there are no Lake ports, I think we are suggesting the change in location for the Aesthetic and realism of the change.

And yeah, tanks driving across lake superior.... [X(]

The port of Duluth freezes as does the lake out to about 10-20 miles from shore, farther out in some areas, but some of the winter storms that occur can cause ice pile ups that are just amazing. The central part of the lake is ice free even in the dead of January when temperatures can drop as low as -45F or colder. A really interesting side effect of this, is that you can find Ocean going Frieghters stacked up outside the port waiting for ice out up to 2-4 weeks before the port is clear of ice.

Jason

[Norman42]

Yes, I'm not suggesting it be a port, just that it be moved to the coastline side of the hex, since it is a port city, it looks odd 100 kilometers inland.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

In MWiF 2 it should be possible to designate which lakes freeze and which don't.

Yes.

And perhaps make that which individual lake hexes, so it isn't an all or nothing design decision.

[Taxman66]

Yup.  On the otherhand I'd hate to see the WiF (not America in Flames mind you) game where it mattered which of the great lake hexes froze or not.  [:D]

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
Going back to Post 377, I think Dominica needs to be identified as CW, as it lies between two French possessions.

When the mouse is on it, there is "Dominica, British Antilles" written in the status bar of the game. Do you think that his would be enough ?

Also, who owns the islands between US Virgin and French Antilles (1 hex E and 1 hex NE of St Thomas)?

It is British Antilles too.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Taxman66
In MWiF 2 it should be possible to designate which lakes freeze and which don't.

Yes.

And perhaps make that which individual lake hexes, so it isn't an all or nothing design decision.

Wow, great idea !