Matrix Games Forums

I'd go for a grey colour instead of black for the shading of the counter. It also looks a little to thick in some screenshots.

As you've said yourself already, Shannon, 'you can't please all of the people all of the time'.

The shadowy 3D effect on the counters is a massive leap forward in the graphics, it really, REALLY brings the game up to date, and lends a much more satisfying visual appeal, but I think it's time to let let go of this priority that's evolved regarding those who are blighted with colour blindness. Regretably prejudiced as I might sound, I'm pretty sure we're talking about an absolutely tiny proportion of potential players, and if your time is consumed catering for THEM, what's next - a politically correct work-up for jewish players, with Nazi Generals that were indited at Nuremburg erased from the HQ counter names? SS counters and Japanese HQs reworked so as not to offend the descendants of POWs? What about counter name translations for those not savvy with the english language, or country specific partisan counters for Malaya, Israel and Northern Ireland? Shouldn't Leningrad and Stalingrad be renamed so as not to cause offence, and I'm quite sure that there's something mightily controversial about Japanese Manchurian Territorials, or armoured units named 'Mussolini'...

My point is, whether someone's in a wheelchair, dyslexic, politically sensitive, gay, incontinent or colourblind, is it really worth devoting valuable programming time to cater for a very small - nay microscopic - potential consumer group? Appealing to the safest possible denominator can only lead to further delays, can't it? Harry Rowland didn't let such considerations affect his design, and your oft-repeated intention is to reproduce his in the closest way possible .. unbridle your genius, my master, and create like a god!

what's next - a politically correct work-up for jewish players, with Nazi Generals that were indited at Nuremburg erased from the HQ counter names? SS counters and Japanese HQs reworked

Actually, Mr. Inertia, just to be a fly in the ointment, allow me to point out that in Germany, it is illegal to sell a product (computer game, music video, etc.) that has the swastika in it....

So, if you wish to sell that product in Germany, you must substitue different symbols for the verbotten ones.

As I see it, finding a color blend that works for the color blind, and replacing the illegal symbols, and so forth, takes what? Two or three business days?

I find that that level of attention to detail shown by Mr. O'keets to be reassuring.

Patience, young Padawan...

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

As you've said yourself already, Shannon, 'you can't please all of the people all of the time'.

The shadowy 3D effect on the counters is a massive leap forward in the graphics, it really, REALLY brings the game up to date, and lends a much more satisfying visual appeal, but I think it's time to let let go of this priority that's evolved regarding those who are blighted with colour blindness. Regretably prejudiced as I might sound, I'm pretty sure we're talking about an absolutely tiny proportion of potential players, and if your time is consumed catering for THEM, what's next - a politically correct work-up for jewish players, with Nazi Generals that were indited at Nuremburg erased from the HQ counter names? SS counters and Japanese HQs reworked so as not to offend the descendants of POWs? What about counter name translations for those not savvy with the english language, or country specific partisan counters for Malaya, Israel and Northern Ireland? Shouldn't Leningrad and Stalingrad be renamed so as not to cause offence, and I'm quite sure that there's something mightily controversial about Japanese Manchurian Territorials, or armoured units named 'Mussolini'...

My point is, whether someone's in a wheelchair, dyslexic, politically sensitive, gay, incontinent or colourblind, is it really worth devoting valuable programming time to cater for a very small - nay microscopic - potential consumer group? Appealing to the safest possible denominator can only lead to further delays, can't it? Harry Rowland didn't let such considerations affect his design, and your oft-repeated intention is to reproduce his in the closest way possible .. unbridle your genius, my master, and create like a god!

I think this is wildly off the mark. Color-blindness renders a person incapable of processing a fundamental element of the game--it is actually prohibitive by nature. By contrast, the examples you raise--homosexuality, wheelchair-bound, incontinence, political sensitivity, etc.--do not result in a person's physical inability to negotiate MWiF's software in any way. They're red herrings at best. Indeed, comparing the ocular impairment of an eager WiF fan to the emotional issues of PoWs and their offspring merely blurs the subject and smacks of hysteria. It also takes away from any meaningful discussion of whether something can be done about the colorblindness issue (or, for that matter, whether Steve should bother trying). Besides, it may actually be a solveable challenge, unlike dyslexia, which would require something like a miracle.

We all want to play the game. But stuff like this doesn't get us there any faster.

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia

As you've said yourself already, Shannon, 'you can't please all of the people all of the time'.

The shadowy 3D effect on the counters is a massive leap forward in the graphics, it really, REALLY brings the game up to date, and lends a much more satisfying visual appeal, but I think it's time to let let go of this priority that's evolved regarding those who are blighted with colour blindness. Regretably prejudiced as I might sound, I'm pretty sure we're talking about an absolutely tiny proportion of potential players, and if your time is consumed catering for THEM, what's next - a politically correct work-up for jewish players, with Nazi Generals that were indited at Nuremburg erased from the HQ counter names? SS counters and Japanese HQs reworked so as not to offend the descendants of POWs? What about counter name translations for those not savvy with the english language, or country specific partisan counters for Malaya, Israel and Northern Ireland? Shouldn't Leningrad and Stalingrad be renamed so as not to cause offence, and I'm quite sure that there's something mightily controversial about Japanese Manchurian Territorials, or armoured units named 'Mussolini'...

My point is, whether someone's in a wheelchair, dyslexic, politically sensitive, gay, incontinent or colourblind, is it really worth devoting valuable programming time to cater for a very small - nay microscopic - potential consumer group? Appealing to the safest possible denominator can only lead to further delays, can't it? Harry Rowland didn't let such considerations affect his design, and your oft-repeated intention is to reproduce his in the closest way possible .. unbridle your genius, my master, and create like a god!

As you've said yourself already, Shannon, 'you can't please all of the people all of the time'.

The shadowy 3D effect on the counters is a massive leap forward in the graphics, it really, REALLY brings the game up to date, and lends a much more satisfying visual appeal, but I think it's time to let let go of this priority that's evolved regarding those who are blighted with colour blindness. Regretably prejudiced as I might sound, I'm pretty sure we're talking about an absolutely tiny proportion of potential players, and if your time is consumed catering for THEM, what's next - a politically correct work-up for jewish players, with Nazi Generals that were indited at Nuremburg erased from the HQ counter names? SS counters and Japanese HQs reworked so as not to offend the descendants of POWs? What about counter name translations for those not savvy with the english language, or country specific partisan counters for Malaya, Israel and Northern Ireland? Shouldn't Leningrad and Stalingrad be renamed so as not to cause offence, and I'm quite sure that there's something mightily controversial about Japanese Manchurian Territorials, or armoured units named 'Mussolini'...

My point is, whether someone's in a wheelchair, dyslexic, politically sensitive, gay, incontinent or colourblind, is it really worth devoting valuable programming time to cater for a very small - nay microscopic - potential consumer group? Appealing to the safest possible denominator can only lead to further delays, can't it? Harry Rowland didn't let such considerations affect his design, and your oft-repeated intention is to reproduce his in the closest way possible .. unbridle your genius, my master, and create like a god!

Wow, only 22 posts and you have proved you are a complete f%$^ing idiot.

Quite common - runs close to 10% in the male population depending on population. Much rarer in women (it's our wussy deformed Y chromosome). But I'm going out on a limb and gonna say most of the prospective clients for this game will be guys...

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia
As you've said yourself already, Shannon, 'you can't please all of the people all of the time'.

The shadowy 3D effect on the counters is a massive leap forward in the graphics, it really, REALLY brings the game up to date, and lends a much more satisfying visual appeal, but I think it's time to let let go of this priority that's evolved regarding those who are blighted with colour blindness. Regretably prejudiced as I might sound, I'm pretty sure we're talking about an absolutely tiny proportion of potential players, and if your time is consumed catering for THEM, what's next - a politically correct work-up for jewish players, with Nazi Generals that were indited at Nuremburg erased from the HQ counter names? SS counters and Japanese HQs reworked so as not to offend the descendants of POWs? What about counter name translations for those not savvy with the english language, or country specific partisan counters for Malaya, Israel and Northern Ireland? Shouldn't Leningrad and Stalingrad be renamed so as not to cause offence, and I'm quite sure that there's something mightily controversial about Japanese Manchurian Territorials, or armoured units named 'Mussolini'...

My point is, whether someone's in a wheelchair, dyslexic, politically sensitive, gay, incontinent or colourblind, is it really worth devoting valuable programming time to cater for a very small - nay microscopic - potential consumer group? Appealing to the safest possible denominator can only lead to further delays, can't it? Harry Rowland didn't let such considerations affect his design, and your oft-repeated intention is to reproduce his in the closest way possible .. unbridle your genius, my master, and create like a god!

10% of the male population has color blindness at some level - your argument would have more substance if we were targeting primarily women for this product (<2%).

This does not take much time to get right. Figure out which colors to use and it is done.

Besides, I have designing user interfaces as part of my professional background and to ignore the color blind users would be anathema to me.

Manic Inertia I responded about the colors because Shannon asked the question about the view from a color-blind persons perspective. I was not complaining or asking for any kind of consideration. In fact, Shannon is the first game designer that I EVER heard that was concerned about this.

Now I could probably give a more accurate answer if I had a bigger screen display to look at so I had the full visual impact. Then again there are varying levels of color-blindness so what is "bad" for me may be okay for someone else. I don't see gray scale only which is lucky for me, but then maybe I do. since I have no true basis to describe what a color is to a person that is not color blind there really is no point of reference. If I were to suddenly lose my color-blindness I would have to relearn my colors as would a person who was not color blind would.

What I can say is that this particular shade is red, and this shade is blue (no colors shown). I have learned this over my whole life. As I said above if that were to suddenly change then I wouldn't know what shade is what until I relearned the spectrum. Now when all these "shades" are put together and I have no base reference I can't make sense of the colors and some tend to blend in together to the point where I don't see them at all.

Anyways trying to describe this in words is rather difficult and really isn't worthwhile. I don't want to start a whole discussion on this and don't want to waste other peoples time. So I will end my part of this here.

Shannon, if you have any other inquires in this respect I will gladly answer them for you. Again though a bigger image would probably be better so I can get the full visual impact.

ORIGINAL: oldtimer
...

Shannon, if you have any other inquires in this respect I will gladly answer them for you. Again though a bigger image would probably be better so I can get the full visual impact.

I post screen shots rather regularly, soliciting critiques and comments. From where I sit, color blind players are like all the other players: there are things they like and dislike, things they would like to have changed/improved or locked in as shown. The difference with color blind players, is that their voice represents a known portion of the player community.

That's somewhat similar to someone who has played WIF extensively over the board, representing his segment of the player community, and those who have never played WIF and want a solid tutorial, learning, and help system. Others speak up for solitaire play, Internet play, PBEM. I need to hear all these voices and strike a balance between them all.

This isn't really any hassle for me, it's the nature of the beast. Especially rewarding if I can find a way to make all the players happy - only a theoretical possibility so far.[:D][:D][:D]

ORIGINAL: Yohan

Wow, only 22 posts and you have proved you are a complete f%$^ing idiot.

Yohan, it may be more productive to just ignore Manic's insensitive comments. To paraphrase Robert Heinlein...
"Never argue with a stirrer... he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

If you respond aggressively you demean yourself.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

1 - I have increase the shadow effect slightly.

Hi. I think the MWIF graphics is turning out just wonderful, but I wondered if there is a
change to alter the shading of the counters a little.

The shading is just fine when you only have 1 counter in the hex, but when there is more
than 1 counter in the hex I feel the shading is maybe too dominant and wide. And it's
not obvious there are multiple counters in the hex. I get the feeling there is just a very
thick counter instead of multiple counters.

I have provided a screenshot from a game I converted to ADC2 (Aide De Camp 2) some
years ago for the game designer. It's called Lost Victory. Here I used a different method
for showing shading. The direction of the shading is different, but can easily be made in
the upper left corner of the counter instead.

It's, of course, possible to play with the colors of the shading to get a better effect. For
example using black and grey instead of black and white as I used. The shading can
be made wider too for each counter. Lost Victory had only 45x45 pixels to play with for
the most detailed zoom level so I had to make the shading rather thin.

It's maybe also wise to only show incremental shading effects for the first 4-5 counters
in the hex or the shading would become too wide. A natural maximum could be 4 or
5 counters in the hex. In my game the extra pixel width for each shading was:

1 counter in hex: pixel width increased by 1
2 counters in hex: pixel width increased by 3
3 counters in hex: pixel width increased by 5
4 counters in hex: pixel width increased by 7
5 counters in hex: pixel width increased by 9

I hope there is possible to make the shading look "incremental" so we can imagine there
are other counters in the hex, each slightly offset to each other. The shading shown in
the screenshot from Shannon OKeets gives imho the impression of having very
thick counters instead of multiple counters.

I also have another question. Would the borders of the game change according to
conquest or political actions? I think about for example Bessarabia, East Poland,
Karelia etc. becoming part of the Soviet Union. It's fine to show the regions with
some alternate borders (instead of country borders) after the political change to
remember the old borders. I know from some computer WW2 games that the effect
of changing borders is very handy. It's not possible to do in the board game, of course,
so the map is filled with different border lines dependent upon which scenario we
are playing. But in a computer game only the actual borders could be shown because
it's easy to change the borders following some political or military actions. Is this
possible or are the border lines hard coded into the map?

Keep up the great work with MWIF. [:)]

It's maybe also wise to only show incremental shading effects for the first 4-5 counters
in the hex or the shading would become too wide. A natural maximum could be 4 or
5 counters in the hex. In my game the extra pixel width for each shading was:

1 counter in hex: pixel width increased by 1
2 counters in hex: pixel width increased by 3
3 counters in hex: pixel width increased by 5
4 counters in hex: pixel width increased by 7
5 counters in hex: pixel width increased by 9

I hope there is possible to make the shading look "incremental" so we can imagine there
are other counters in the hex, each slightly offset to each other. The shading shown in
the screenshot from Shannon OKeets gives imho the impression of having very
thick counters instead of multiple counters.

Thank you for your post. I love to explore other options - during design/development. [After I have decided, coded and tested something, is another matter.]

Your proposal would work very well at the highest level of zoom, where there are 96 pixels for the unit proper. I have 18 pixels to work with, between the top of a unit in one hex and the bottom of the unit in the hex above it. On the side I have more pixels available (40, but only 20 if I keep the shadow within the hex. There is a similar constraint for your screen shot, but the hexagon grid is rotated 60 degrees.

What I am doing though is supporting 8 levels of zoom. Most of the time I let the final bitmap image of the hex be compressed using the standard bitmap compression routines included in Delphi/Microsoft libraries. I always start by drawing the hex (with units et al) at the highest level of zoom. Because there are so many gradations, designing an image that has lines a single pixel wide is quickly distorted at lower levels of zoom. I had this problem with the rail lines and the rivers. Originally the rivers were pale blue with a dark blue outline. When zoomed out, the outline disappeared in some places, but not in others, resulting in a splotchy appearance (seriously ugly).

Right now I am only showing 1, 2, 3 or more units in a hex using shading. Widths of the shadows (which do not have a complementing color change on the opposite sides) are 3, 7, and 10. Since the outline for selectability is superimposed on the shadow, the MWIF screen shot you included in your post has a net of 2, 6, 9. I have played with slightly smaller numbers.

The effect of zooming reduces the hex dimensions by multiples of 17 x 19. There are 8 levels of zoom, with 4 being 68 by 76 and 8 being 136 by 152. Because of the interlacing of the hexagons, the effective vertical is 114 (136 wide by 114 high) for unit placement et al. At level 4, where many players will spend most of their time when playing the game, only 9 pixels will be available vertically between units. It's tight.

Border boundaries are static, in placement, size, and coloring. In WIF, it is control of individual hexes that is crucial to game play - effecting supply determination of all units and transportation of both units and resources. Therefore, MWIF has a toggle that will display which major power controls which hex (a small flag is inserted at the bottom of each hexagon). For the screen shots I post, I toggle that off to remove clutter. During play, it will typically not be an issue since players will remember which hexes they control (as they do when playing over the board). However, during setup the flags for who controls which hexes are often shown. Its a simple toggle - click a button - to turn them on and off.

The units with the shading depth denoting "3 or more" will require us to look at the number at the top of the counter to tell us how many units are actually in the hex anyway, so explicitly displaying 3 distinct counters is somewhat problematical. We don't want players seeing three units and unconciously assuming that that's all there are in the hex. Perhaps a vertical grey line to divide the shading to denote two units would be handy. Then in summary we would have...

1. One unit in a hex being obvious.
2. Two units in a hex being obvious due to the grey line.
3. Three or more units in a hex being obvious due to the thick shading, requiring us to check the number.

Cheers, Neilster

I agree on the one hand but on the other silence can also be a sign of a acquiescence.

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

ORIGINAL: Yohan

Wow, only 22 posts and you have proved you are a complete f%$^ing idiot.

Yohan, it may be more productive to just ignore Manic's insensitive comments. To paraphrase Robert Heinlein...
"Never argue with a stirrer... he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

If you respond aggressively you demean yourself.

Goodness me what a lot of interest was generated by my last entry: some interesting responses, but ultimately I'm happy to have received assurances that Shannon's efforts aren't being delayed by considerations for those with a marginal ocular impairment, which was my sole intention in writing it.

That said, If the colourful and light-hearted tone I chose to use qualifies me as a "fucking idiot" in the eyes of some, I'm guessing the more perceptive may have understood a humorous intent instead (although I won't lose much sleep over the matter either way, Yohan!)

How about if you had the indicators overlap the counters? That way, you'd just have to make sure it was visible vs. the counter color, not the terrain; if a mouse-over explains what the indicator indicates, then you could have a color-blind pallete, that would&nbsp;narrow the indicator functionality&nbsp;down to&nbsp;an "on-off" switch; the player could then mouse-over to find out what was being indicated.

How about if you had the indicators overlap the counters? That way, you'd just have to make sure it was visible vs. the counter color, not the terrain; if a mouse-over explains what the indicator indicates, then you could have a color-blind pallete, that would&nbsp;narrow the indicator functionality&nbsp;down to&nbsp;an "on-off" switch; the player could then mouse-over to find out what was being indicated.

&nbsp;
I have very little room on the counter image.&nbsp; Having the status indicators overlap will obscure something.
&nbsp;
The mouse-over explanation is a good idea.&nbsp; I should make that a function for all the other aspects of the unit information.&nbsp; For example, if the player moves the mouse over any number on the counter, a (delayed) popup explains what the number means.&nbsp; That should make all the numbers on the air and naval units easy to learn - or use knowledgably even before you have memorized them.

Since there has been so much interest in China, I thought I would post some screen shots of the Chinese units.&nbsp; These are all the Communist Chinese.&nbsp; Except for the air and naval units, which are Nationalist.

Here is the second in&nbsp;a series of 4.&nbsp; When the Chinese start building&nbsp;their carrier and carrier air units, Japan can safely resign the game.

All these special Chinese divisions are a luxury China can rarley afford to build.