Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Ballista
TF and naming the TF is a great benefit for folks like me who tend to play the game off and on (with highly variable periods of time between sessions sometimes or controling all of one side's major powers (especiall CW)). I can set up my escort groups, "Invasion 1" group etc. Good stuff here.

Not "Storming the Beach", "Death on the Shoreline", "Clambake Cruise", "Sand Dunes Are Us"?

ORIGINAL: Ballista

TF and naming the TF is a great benefit for folks like me who tend to play the game off and on (with highly variable periods of time between sessions sometimes or controling all of one side's major powers (especiall CW)). I can set up my escort groups, "Invasion 1" group etc. Good stuff here.

You can also put notes on each counter, for you to remember what you intended to do with it, for those who have long periods between games.
This would be a good idea if the TF could also have "notes" attached to them.

not a bad idea, normaly I use pen and paper to track my planned moves for particual units, as with so many units somtimes it's easy to foget to move a unit, as you think you've already moved it.
I think I've read on a post already that moved units will have some sort of feature to stop that from happening. so having a feature on a counter that you can right click and 'insert comment' on would be a bouns.

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Ballista

TF and naming the TF is a great benefit for folks like me who tend to play the game off and on (with highly variable periods of time between sessions sometimes or controling all of one side's major powers (especiall CW)). I can set up my escort groups, "Invasion 1" group etc. Good stuff here.

You can also put notes on each counter, for you to remember what you intended to do with it, for those who have long periods between games.
This would be a good idea if the TF could also have "notes" attached to them.

I have expanded the capacity for the notes attached to units (it was somewhat too small for my taste). Like all other units in the game, task forces will have notes as part of the "unit's" definition. Currently, it is possible to simultaneously attach a note to all the units in any stack, but I plan on task forces being a different entity from a simple stack of units. That way, the 'note' can be attached to the task force and even though units are added or removed from the task force, its attached note is unaffected.

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You are asking for a lot from a single counter image. It's probably hopeless to try to do it that way.
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Not really? Depends on level of detail you want? Heres the counter I knocked up in Cyberboard 45x45 pixels. So whats in the box? 2 battleship types (BB/BC etc) 6 cruiser types (CA/CL/etc), 18 destroyer types, 2 carrier types,0 subs, and 8 ancillary/auxillary/non warship types.
Ok crap idea so lets forget it.

Now that's more like it ! I prefer names like "Death to Nazi-ruled France" and "Tokyo Rose Express" [:)]

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian

You are asking for a lot from a single counter image. It's probably hopeless to try to do it that way.

Not really? Depends on level of detail you want? Heres the counter I knocked up in Cyberboard 45x45 pixels. So whats in the box? 2 battleship types (BB/BC etc) 6 cruiser types (CA/CL/etc), 18 destroyer types, 2 carrier types,0 subs, and 8 ancillary/auxillary/non warship types.
Ok crap idea so lets forget it.

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After playing WIF so long, looking at that counter makes my brain bleed. The factors aren't in the intuitive location.

No offense [:D] It would be a fine counter for other games.

How about summarized surface combat factors and summarized anti-air factors on a single counter? For a task force you could even summarize the slowest movement factor and range of a unit within the task force.

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian
Not really? Depends on level of detail you want? Heres the counter I knocked up in Cyberboard 45x45 pixels. So whats in the box? 2 battleship types (BB/BC etc) 6 cruiser types (CA/CL/etc), 18 destroyer types, 2 carrier types,0 subs, and 8 ancillary/auxillary/non warship types.
Ok crap idea so lets forget it.

Why forget it ?
I like it personaly.

How about summarized surface combat factors and summarized anti-air factors on a single counter? For a task force you could even summarize the slowest movement factor and range of a unit within the task force.

This is what Steve presented in Post #56, isn't it ?

Abstract from post #56 :

I expect to add 6 numbers to these which will be similar to what you see on most naval units.

Top left - Total attack
Top center - Minimum movement points (in orange circle)
Top right - # of carrier air units
Bottom left - Total anti-aircraft
Bottom center - Minimum range (in yellow circle)
Bottom right - Total bombardment

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian

You are asking for a lot from a single counter image. It's probably hopeless to try to do it that way.[/quote]

Not really? Depends on level of detail you want? Heres the counter I knocked up in Cyberboard 45x45 pixels. So whats in the box? 2 battleship types (BB/BC etc) 6 cruiser types (CA/CL/etc), 18 destroyer types, 2 carrier types,0 subs, and 8 ancillary/auxillary/non warship types.
Ok crap idea so lets forget it.

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Ian, all ideas are good - I really do believe that. On many occasions I have given someone's idea a "thanks, but no thanks" reply, only to incorporate some part of it into one or more other ideas later. If nothing else, an idea will pose a solution to a problem, and thereby identify a problem. Usually the idea contains at least some viable piece of the solution too.

During the design stage it is absolutely required for the designer to be open to all ideas and to take them seriously. Otherwise opportunities for improvements will be missed.

ehem, silly question:

but couldn't the TF counters simply be bigger than the usual ones?!

At least most of the sea-area boxes could be bigger. Biggest problem would be the harbors...

But perhaps there are multiple options. Perhaps there TF markers could extend to a sea hex, or by clicking on an TF marker one would open a small window with more detailed data. Latter one would mean one mor click, but one less "order of numbers on a counter" to be memorized...

ORIGINAL: wosung
ehem, silly question:

but couldn't the TF counters simply be bigger than the usual ones?!

At least most of the sea-area boxes could be bigger. Biggest problem would be the harbors...

But perhaps there are multiple options. Perhaps there TF markers could extend to a sea hex, or by clicking on an TF marker one would open a small window with more detailed data. Latter one would mean one mor click, but one less "order of numbers on a counter" to be memorized...

Coding for a different size counter would be a major headache and not that much of a gain.

How to access more details is the real question. I proposed one possible solution that met with a resoundnig silence - but it is still highest on my list of solutions:

A sea area/port/task force panel that lets players add & remove sea areas/ports/task forces to & from the panel. Within the panel would be more detailed information on the naval units in the sea area/port/task force. Different options would be available, such as head counts (# of CVs, BBs, CAs, etc.), and strength summaries (air-to-sea factors). In addition, these could be filtered in hundreds of different ways - the routines already exist to do the filtering: by side, nationality, unit type, sea area section, etc..

The concept is that the panel can be brought up whenever wanted and the contents of the panel whatever the player specifies. The Units Under Cursor panel has a similar purpose, but it is limited to viewing only a single stack of units at one time.

Steve,
 
I have not been following this thread closely and may have missed something.  So if my post exposes my ignorance please ignore it.
 
Having a panel is a good idea.  It will give more detail than could be placed on the counter. 
 
The advantage to having some info on the task force counter is that it will help identify the task force that you are looking for.
 
I don't like the idea of a 'larger' counter for task forces, but if there were a way to show the 'size' of the task force on the main display, I think it would help.
 
It could be a simple as dots on the counter or as complex as the numbers shown on the cyberboard counter.
 
I do like the idea of knowing how many CV, BB, CA, and such on the task force counter, but you are the one that can best determine the 'bang for the buck' if you get my meaning.
 
It seems to me that the task force counter will be relatively devoid of details (compared to a regular counter).  There could be room for some of that information.  I think that movement and range is not as important for the task force counter as the count of elements within it.  I also think that combat values are not as important for the task force counter as the count of elements within it. (I could be wrong on either count.)
 
In short, can we have both the panel and some content info on the task force counter?
 
This is going to be a great product when it is done! 

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

Steve,

I have not been following this thread closely and may have missed something.  So if my post exposes my ignorance please ignore it.

Having a panel is a good idea.  It will give more detail than could be placed on the counter. 

The advantage to having some info on the task force counter is that it will help identify the task force that you are looking for.

I don't like the idea of a 'larger' counter for task forces, but if there were a way to show the 'size' of the task force on the main display, I think it would help.

It could be a simple as dots on the counter or as complex as the numbers shown on the cyberboard counter.

I do like the idea of knowing how many CV, BB, CA, and such on the task force counter, but you are the one that can best determine the 'bang for the buck' if you get my meaning.

It seems to me that the task force counter will be relatively devoid of details (compared to a regular counter).  There could be room for some of that information.  I think that movement and range is not as important for the task force counter as the count of elements within it.  I also think that combat values are not as important for the task force counter as the count of elements within it. (I could be wrong on either count.)

In short, can we have both the panel and some content info on the task force counter?

This is going to be a great product when it is done! 

See post #56 in this thread. And let me know what you think about that proposal.

Steve
 
I have reread post #56 and now I know why I was confused.  I thought someone had suggested those numbers and that idea was being turned down.  It was you!
 
I like the proposal in #56!
 
Sorry for exposing my ignorance.
 
 

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Coding for a different size counter would be a major headache and not that much of a gain.

How to access more details is the real question. I proposed one possible solution that met with a resoundnig silence - but it is still highest on my list of solutions:

A sea area/port/task force panel that lets players add & remove sea areas/ports/task forces to & from the panel. Within the panel would be more detailed information on the naval units in the sea area/port/task force. Different options would be available, such as head counts (# of CVs, BBs, CAs, etc.), and strength summaries (air-to-sea factors). In addition, these could be filtered in hundreds of different ways - the routines already exist to do the filtering: by side, nationality, unit type, sea area section, etc..

The concept is that the panel can be brought up whenever wanted and the contents of the panel whatever the player specifies. The Units Under Cursor panel has a similar purpose, but it is limited to viewing only a single stack of units at one time.

You know Steve, when a solution is obvious we sometimes just don't care to answer because we know that's what's going happen anyway. Silence sometimes means concur. [:D] It's more tempting to post a reply on a post where I feel something possibly is wrong or can be improved.

So I like your solution. What I think you need to adress is in what way this screen will be different from the regular Select Unit Screen. There is obviously a lot of similarity but also some differences that aren't yet part of the Select Unit Screen.

Ullern

ORIGINAL: ullern
You know Steve, when a solution is obvious we sometimes just don't care to answer because we know that's what's going happen anyway. Silence sometimes means concur. [:D] It's more tempting to post a reply on a post where I feel something possibly is wrong or can be improved.

So I like your solution. What I think you need to adress is in what way this screen will be different from the regular Select Unit Screen. There is obviously a lot of similarity but also some differences that aren't yet part of the Select Unit Screen.

Ullern

I also like the solution Steve proposed, and I also like what Plain Ian proposed.

Maybe the TF counter could be both either as Steve said and as Plain Ian said, and that using a right click button command, you could go from one view to the other.

And also, I believe that we should always say if we like an idea or not, so that Steve knows the Forum's opinion.

I was in the process of writing one of my infrequent post and happened to check before submitting only to find Froonp has beat me to the punch.

I really like the info from Post 56 and having the ability to toggle (right-click) and have the same TF counter display the ship counts by type would be, in my opinion, a good amount of useful information.

One thing would be cool to help making naval moves would be to make the sea areas better seen at zoom 1 and 2 maybe, and to have the stand out from the next better.

- To tell one from the next, why not having the sea area borders thicker when you are at zoom 1 (the smallest hexes), and why not zoom 2 too.

- To make one sea area stand out from the next, why not having all the sea hexes of the sea area either darken / lighten / highlighted, when the mouse is over one of its hexes ?

ORIGINAL: Froonp
One thing would be cool to help making naval moves would be to make the sea areas better seen at zoom 1 and 2 maybe, and to have the stand out from the next better.

- To tell one from the next, why not having the sea area borders thicker when you are at zoom 1 (the smallest hexes), and why not zoom 2 too.

- To make one sea area stand out from the next, why not having all the sea hexes of the sea area either darken / lighten / highlighted, when the mouse is over one of its hexes ?

Instead of modifying the whole hex, how about changing the center dot instead? [Though I promise nothing, this is just a change to your suggestion.]