Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Vetamur

Just my 2 cents..but dont the Italian fighters need to be redone? Well..obviously more testing is needed..But the Hurricane II should do better than THAT against them, shouldnt it?  Im not quite the expert many others here are..and I will readily admit ignorance of some facets of the European theater (and Med)..but honestly, the Hurricane should be able to AT LEAST hold its own against most of those Italian fighters..

From reading books on the air seige of Malta, it wasn't that Italian fighters were not capable, but Italian morale was apparently very low... they (fighters and bombers) would normally break off contact at the first sign of any opposition.

You could set the morale of the Italian air groups to be very low at the beginning of the game... but i don't think they would stay low for long.

Another possibility would be to set the EXP and morale of the pilots to be low...

The refernece book I have in front of me quotes "The Mc.200 Saetta was never a match for the inine engined Hurricans...it encountered.."...the CR.42 is a biplane and got its hat handed to it in the Battle of Britain..and even in North Africa was considered "no more than adequate".
 
Obviously thats just one book..but ..
 
To keep Moral low I suppose setting it low and giving its officers poor inspiration might help....

I personally am with Vetamur here. I don't feel these lower grde Italian fighters should be SUPERIOR to a Hurricane. I'm ok with seeing veteran pilots shooting down the odd Hurri but I struggle to see how bi-planes can contribute to shooting down Hurris for no loss of their own[;)]
 
Anyway guys lets not bash this Mod. It's a FANTSTIC effort and must have been very hard to do.
 
Let's use this AAR as a test bed ofr the future.

ORIGINAL: Speedy

I personally am with Vetamur here. I don't feel these lower grde Italian fighters should be SUPERIOR to a Hurricane. I'm ok with seeing veteran pilots shooting down the odd Hurri but I struggle to see how bi-planes can contribute to shooting down Hurris for no loss of their own[;)]

Anyway guys lets not bash this Mod. It's a FANTSTIC effort and must have been very hard to do.

Let's use this AAR as a test bed ofr the future.

a bit hard to know who shot down whom just from reading the AAR - i had kinda thought that most of the Brits were lost on the ground from bombs, but from your comments it seems that the Italians (with some biplanes, no less) worked over the Hurris in air to air??

The fighters i was talking about appeared later in the war (not at the outset as the Italians really didn't put on the Blitz from the start...)*

EDIT: *i'd have to get the books from the library again to find out which models were involved... but it wasn't biplanes.

ORIGINAL: Speedy
Anyway guys lets not bash this Mod. It's a FANTSTIC effort and must have been very hard to do.

Actually I think all the comments and suggestions flying around reflect a high level of enthusiasm for the mod. As soon as I can figure out how to get a second %$^&^$ install I'm firing this up.

rtrapasso, the story of the low morale of italian air units is another much stereotyped concept. Italian pilots were, in reality, held in high esteem even by the Germans and Rommel himself. The weak point of the Italian air force was in the logistics: few spare parts, low quality materials (many planes were build with wooden parts for lack of metal), cronic lack of fuel, low reliability of the planes.

To have an idea of the magnitude of the problem, Italy had, at the beginning of the war, a paper strength of 3,296 machines of which just 166 were "modern" fighters fit for combat (MC.200 and G.50, still much inferior to contemporary allied models) . The rest were used as a "supply" of spare parts or were hopelessy obsolete models.

I guess the logistic part is difficult to simulate in WITP. A possible choice would be to reduce the replacement rates and decrease durability of the main Italian models. In this ways you could see units progressively reduced to 4-5 planes as they were in reality.

rtrapasso, the story of the low morale of italian air units is another much stereotyped concept. Italian pilots were, in reality, held in high esteem even by the Germans and Rommel himself. The weak point of the Italian air force was in the logistics: few spare parts, low quality materials (many planes were build with wooden parts for lack of metal), cronic lack of fuel, low reliability of the planes.

i was speaking in game terms - if the air unit breaks off contact in the game, it is because of low morale, not bad logistics. In GAME terms, a unit with bad logistics doesn't fly for the most part. If the Italian units broke off contact on meeting opposition because of fear of damaging their aircraft (rather than fear of injury or death) - then in game terms in boils down to low morale.

The books i read continually would make note that the Italians would often jettison their bombs and return to base when intercepted... not always, but it was enough of a problem that they eventually called for help in the form of the Luftwaffe. Of course, other authors may cite other views.

Unfortuantely, in WITP and mods, there is no way i know of to separate Italian supplies and German supplies... so if one has good logistics, so will the other, so giving the Italians (and not the Germans) poor logistics is not really a good option.

mifune and me are now working in a new A2A combat based at RHS engine, but everything in this matter would be testing anyway.
Is obvious the "maneuver" of different italian aircraft in my mod would generate controversy.[8|] The other dates are the historical, speed, climb rate, etc..
The CR-42 (the only biplane fighter in the mod) is cleary below level of the Hurries in speed, climb rate, armament, maneuver, etc..
  
 

I didn't have enough time to watch A2A combat all the time, but i've noticed that first rounds resulted with damaged ac (not killed) - now i know that Fremen changed weapon statistics but obvioulsy it isn't enough...

Well, i do think we need more testing. I'm willing to do that, but more AARs would be better...

What kind of supply levels are there in N. Africa at the start of the game (for both sides)?  They should be horrible.  With limited supply, the rest of the war will ground to a halt.  You may have a horde of bombers, but if you choose to (attempt) to fly them each day, your supply will dry up and everything else (including the air war) will dry up.

Supply in North Africa (Great Italian Africa - GIA[;)]) is well modeled, IMHO...

Perhaps we can limit big air campaigns if few base forces are removed or cut off their TOE to the 50-70%?

In addition, some base forces in Italia can be turned into static unit to prevent players to move them to the frontlines? (their only purpose is to keep air units fully operational and at the same time those units can not be transfered to the frontlines because the lack of air support?)

Just my oppinion.... i do not know how the Malta is modeled, but adding supply source (to make impossible to starve Malta) might be good idea?

Oh, God, what am i doing? I'm supposed to be ultimate Axis fanboy[:D]

fremen;

The map is fantastic-looking! I can't even imagine how much work this was. Well done, sir.

As for the Malta problem, I have several suggestions to prevent Adlertag on day 1.

1) Keep the plane capabilities historical as the grognards will only be happy with that.
2) Make the Sicilian and Calabrian air support units partly disabled or limit supply so that the Axis player can't have massive coordinated raids on day 1.
3) If there are Axis Air HQ's about..partly disable them or give the CO's poor ratings.
4) Amp up the AAA on Malta..perhaps put some radar there even if not historical (I dont know if there was or not)
5) Consider reducing the experience of Italian pilots.

ORIGINAL: pauk


Just my oppinion.... i do not know how the Malta is modeled, but adding supply source (to make impossible to starve Malta) might be good idea?

Not realistic, I'm afraid. Malta very nearly was starved out: the "Pedestal" convoy arrived about three days before the British commander would have surrendered.

Is it possible to run supplies into Malta with subs in this mod? It was done historically.

Hi all,

The tuirn is back with Pauk.

I will be more open than usual in a game since this is a playtest.

As mentioned I have evac'd what I could off Malta. The main problem being Hurri/Spit can't reach anywhere of use! As such they are stuck there for now.

My fighter force is in a very pitiful state I can tell you that.

To allay any fears of the deadliness of Italian fighters[;)]

Fremen - i've noticed a lot of ship reinforcements are due to arrive at Truk. Something to look at. Also I wonder if Msus, North Africa should start in Allied hands rather than Axis what with an Allied LCU well to the west of it?

ORIGINAL: pauk

Supply in North Africa (Great Italian Africa - GIA[;)]) is well modeled, IMHO...

Perhaps we can limit big air campaigns if few base forces are removed or cut off their TOE to the 50-70%?

In addition, some base forces in Italia can be turned into static unit to prevent players to move them to the frontlines? (their only purpose is to keep air units fully operational and at the same time those units can not be transfered to the frontlines because the lack of air support?)

Just my oppinion.... i do not know how the Malta is modeled, but adding supply source (to make impossible to starve Malta) might be good idea?

Oh, God, what am i doing? I'm supposed to be ultimate Axis fanboy[:D]

The TOE of the base units in North Africa was +50% in the beta testing. Reduced 50% the axis air capacity in NA was my first intent to fight against the "Roller Axis Ball" effect the first weeks, when the axis player traslate all your air superiority to NA. I think (again) the best solution is some HOME RULES.

fremen;

The map is fantastic-looking! I can't even imagine how much work this was. Well done, sir.

The map was made by Cobra, i'm only modify some roads, names, errors..

As for the Malta problem, I have several suggestions to prevent Adlertag on day 1.

1) Keep the plane capabilities historical as the grognards will only be happy with that.

Working in this matter.

2) Make the Sicilian and Calabrian air support units partly disabled or limit supply so that the Axis player can't have massive coordinated raids on day 1.

I don't know if this would be the solution. Historicaly the germans make a great campaign over Malta and disabled the base.

3) If there are Axis Air HQ's about..partly disable them or give the CO's poor ratings.

This matter was pointed by Rtrapasso i think...if give poor ratings to HQ in theatre, also give poor rating to Germans because the game only allow "one axis side".

4) Amp up the AAA on Malta..perhaps put some radar there even if not historical (I dont know if there was or not)

The AAA on Malta was increased 100% from the beta testing....

5) Consider reducing the experience of Italian pilots.

Possible.

Fremen - i've noticed a lot of ship reinforcements are due to arrive at Truk. Something to look at. Also I wonder if Msus, North Africa should start in Allied hands rather than Axis what with an Allied LCU well to the west of it?

Yes, this is hard coded again.
The game engine builds a continuous "stream" of AK and AP ships to allies. This is beyond my mod capacities.
The program send those ships to "Truk" by unknown reason to me. The correct AK and AP reinforcements go to England, Gibraltar or Alexandría bases.

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

The books i read continually would make note that the Italians would often jettison their bombs and return to base when intercepted... not always, but it was enough of a problem that they eventually called for help in the form of the Luftwaffe. Of course, other authors may cite other views.

Unfortunately, many books just scratch the surface and fail victims of easy stereotypes and of the propaganda of the time when it's about describing the history of armed forces of axis minors. For a more in-depth and well researched account I suggest the book "In the Skies of Europe" by Hans Werner Neulen.

At the peak of air war over Malta and in the Med, the life expectancy of the crews of frontline Italian bombers and torpedo bombers was of 3 sorties- not that different form kamikazes. Not surprisingly the flight to Malta became known as the "route to death" - so much for "lack of determination".

The Italian air effort in the Med was always greatly hampered by big problems in the Italian industry, bad logistic and hopelessy outmatched aircrafts. In the last big offensive against Malta (10-20 Oct 42) the Italian Air Force deployed an impressive force of 4 bomber groups, 3 fighter groups and 1 fighter bomber group - in reality the total all bomber groups could field were 18 Cant Z1007bis and 7 Stukas - not much to neutralize the island.

I understand the problem of implementing this in the WITP engine and I want to thank Fremen for his hard work in giving us a beatiful and well-researched mod. I think a way to incorporate these logistic limitations, and to add realism to the mod, would be to reduce the replacement rate of some of the major Italian aircrafts. This way air groups will be depleted in heavy action and the pace of the air war will slow down to a more realistic rythm.

Hi,
 
It's something we can look into during this playtest. My feeling is the replacement rates will be a bit high but let's see how it plays out.

ORIGINAL: itmc09

rtrapasso, the story of the low morale of italian air units is another much stereotyped concept. Italian pilots were, in reality, held in high esteem even by the Germans and Rommel himself. The weak point of the Italian air force was in the logistics: few spare parts, low quality materials (many planes were build with wooden parts for lack of metal), cronic lack of fuel, low reliability of the planes.

To have an idea of the magnitude of the problem, Italy had, at the beginning of the war, a paper strength of 3,296 machines of which just 166 were "modern" fighters fit for combat (MC.200 and G.50, still much inferior to contemporary allied models) . The rest were used as a "supply" of spare parts or were hopelessy obsolete models.

I guess the logistic part is difficult to simulate in WITP. A possible choice would be to reduce the replacement rates and decrease durability of the main Italian models. In this ways you could see units progressively reduced to 4-5 planes as they were in reality.

There is also am myth about the "poor Italian Air Force", their opponents at the time were flying Gladiators & Pzl 11 and only later got a few Hurricanes with a bloody sand filter which took about 20mph off their speed.

While a few Italian pilots were excllent, the majority lacked combat training and really didnt improve.